This is a poll for straight men only.
Assume: that you and the woman in the picture are both single and close enough in age for a serious relationship.
Fill out the poll below that applies to you – white, black, Latino or Asian. Click as many answers as apply.
If you want to take part in the poll but none of the polls apply to you, leave your answer in the comments.
Note: If the model in the picture is reading this (*cringe*) all I can say is that I think you are very beautiful – it is why I picked your picture in the first place. Unfortunately, given the nature of this blog, it attracts racist jerks who in the comments have surprised even me with the lengths they have gone to this time.
I posted your picture elsewhere and it was very well received:
http://abagond.tumblr.com/post/542653596/paint-me-by-art-wuk
How do I fit conveniently into one of your 4 categories? I went with Asian.
Strangely enough she looks like a lot of my relatives.
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I’d tap that! 🙂
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you picked someone with a very symmetrical face, so i seriously doubt you will get many ugly votes.
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True. This is a very beautiful woman so I don’t get it.
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Also, I believe most commenters here are female, so maybe you should post an image of a man and ask whether females of different races find him attractive. For the more votes, I mean.
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It’s interesting to note that no black man, for now, found her “hot”.
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Aba, I agree with Mira. That would be interesting, however, if I know your style at all, I have a feeling you already plan to do that:)
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She’s pretty, if she had a personality to match the good looks, educated etc, I wouldn’t mind my brother bringing her home 😉
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As Hathor mentioned previously, she has a very symmetrical face – really pretty features.
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I’m guessing she is one of those composite, “average” faces — a blend of many women?
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I think she is really pretty woman.
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I rated her hot under black.
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I would definitely introduce her to some of my functional friends & family. She’s lovely & agree i with Hathor about the symmetry of her face.
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I didn’t choose hot, because I’d need to see from the neck down in order to determine that. Hotness is more an overall thing. If she’s got a fat booty and a nice hip to waist ratio, then I can determine whether she’s hot. So just looking at the face only, I’ll say she’s beautiful/pretty.
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As a carioca man, my first question would be can we safely assume that “she” is not, in fact, a “he”?
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What??? She’s a woman.
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As a carioca man, my first question would be can we safely assume that “she” is not, in fact, a “he”?
Thad, you buzzard!
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Leigh sez:
What??? She’s a woman.
Oh, Leigh… [shakes head sadly].
Give thanks that you are not a man living in Rio de Janeiro.
😀
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Thaddeus said to leigh:
“Oh, Leigh… [shakes head sadly].
Give thanks that you are not a man living in Rio de Janeiro.”
Or Thailand! I can tell you a few stories about “that” but that would take it of topic! LOL!
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@Thaddeus:
Leigh sez:
What??? She’s a woman.
I wouldn’t know. You must see them a lot.
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I could only answer 1 of your questions. I would need to meet her and talk to her first. There is so much more to a woman than any of your questions could possibly tell me that It would be very hard to give an honest opinion. There are way to many unknowns about everybody to really answer your questions with any real honesty.
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You know what’s funny? When I say this woman I thought she could be my older sister…well if I had an older sister.
We have similar facial features/proportions. Skin tone too!
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WAAAAY too much make-up, which is why my trans-radar went off.
Hell, she’s got so much shadow on that it looks like someone punched her in the eyes.
Definitely an Adam’s apple check for me before going any further.
So tell us, Abagond: is the person a woman?
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I’ve always wondered why Brazil has such a high prevalence of transsexuals.
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Thad
She has a very soft face and feminine features…Im about 98% sure “she” is a woman.
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Yep, I do see the point about too much make up. The racoon eyes look is not cute!
The too-red lipstick and come hither look…must be a dude! lol
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She is a woman, probably from Florida. She is not a composite. That picture, though, has been processed to make it look more like a painting or something. Here is the photograph it is based on:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4thei/2453857843/
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I knew she was a woman from the getgo. She looks great!
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FG sez:
I’ve always wondered why Brazil has such a high prevalence of transsexuals.
I don’t think we do, actually. Ours are just more out and about and socially recognized.
Y sez:
She has a very soft face and feminine features…Im about 98% sure “she” is a woman.
Again, if you go by features, don’t come down here. 😀
OK, given that she’s a woman, Abagond, tell us what the deal is with all that make-up then. Because that’s my first warning sign. Give us a social context for the make up: is she a performer of some sort? Is there some reason why she needs that much make up? Because people who use make up like that because they think it’s sexy – men or women – are on my warning list, whatever else they might be.
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OK, given that she’s a woman, Abagond, tell us what the deal is with all that make-up then. Because that’s my first warning sign.
Is Abagond a make-up expert? Ask a woman or transgendered woman. Keep in mind you will have to have all day, possibly weeks!
Give us a social context for the make up
It’s fun to play with!
Is there some reason why she needs that much make up?
Make-up application is an art, an art!
Because people who use make up like that because they think it’s sexy – men or women – are on my warning list, whatever else they might be.
Warning list for what?
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You don’t have to wear a lot of make-up to look like a man. Take Jennifer Aniston as an example. Everyone knows she’s a woman, but she can look straight up man-ish at times.
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Thad,
She is modeling. The photographer may request that she makeup that way, because if flash is used, it can wash out all make up. You will notice that in some photos, the make up is not as noticeable. I think both are probably amateurs. The make up may be done for a specific effect for one of the shots. I didn’t look at all the photos.
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I think she is pretty , I would date her.
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Thad,
I say this because my ex use to take pictures of me, and experimented with light and the process he used in developing. I made up more heavily, because he use stationary lights that were extremely bright. Photographing Black people can be a challenge in getting the lighting balance with the entire picture.
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Herneith sez:
Make-up application is an art, an art!
So this woman is what, then? A Dadaist? 😀
Warning list for what?
Manipulative people, ultimately.
She is modeling. The photographer may request that she makeup that way, because if flash is used, it can wash out all make up.
OK, presuming this is true, I’ll say tht she’s pretty (not beautiful) and that I would (everything from have sex with her on down) presuming that our interactions showed us to be compatible in personality.
Now, do I vote in the Latino or White category? Or both?
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Funny how Americans gloss “Latino” as a race – as if we didn’t have white, black, asian, native american and whatever else south of the border.
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thaddeus, she doesn’t appear to have an adam’s apple.
I am forever wondering why everytime a black woman’s beauty is brought up somehow, someone has to masculinize it…
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Thad
I think for most Americans Latino usually means Mestizo, because it seems like the majority of Latinos in America are more Amerindian than white, or any other race for that matter. Aside from Cubans and Puerto Ricans.
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I think she’s pretty. I think she would be just okay without make-up, but nonetheless her face is too average for me to consider beautiful.
But since I’m not a man, I asked my SO what he thinks. He said she is good-looking and beautiful, but she’s wearing a lot of make-up. He would need a 360 view of her before determining whether he would have sex with her, and he would need to know what her personality is like before determining if he would date her, introduce to her to his mother, or marry her. I voted for him under “White men.”
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What is all this nonsense about questioning her womanhood. She doesn’t have even the slightest glimmer of masculine features. When you see a black tranny, you KNOW it’s a tranny. Only Asian men can seem to be able to pass themselves off as women and fool a lot of people.
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Dadaist
Whoseawhat’sit? Women, people, have been applying make-up before the dadaist movement.
Manipulative people, ultimately..
Discuss.
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Thad:
Sorry, my mistake. I forgot that white men often see black women as “mannish” looking. In the poll I should have added “She looks like a man!”
Whether you should vote under white or Latino, pick whichever one you feel more comfortable with. If you are on the fence, pick white because that is how you were brought up.
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Tulio said:
“I didn’t choose hot, because I’d need to see from the neck down in order to determine that. Hotness is more an overall thing. If she’s got a fat booty and a nice hip to waist ratio, then I can determine whether she’s hot. So just looking at the face only, I’ll say she’s beautiful/pretty”
Some women can look hot from the neck up, but you are right, for most women it comes mainly from their figure.
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Abagond:
Sorry, my mistake. I forgot that white men often see black women as “mannish”. In the poll I should have added “She looks like a man!”
That’s a cheap shot and an example of bullsh$# at it’s finest, as well as a great example of not giving a damn about what a commentator is actually saying.
I agreed with Y that she DOESN’T look like a man according to her facial features: she has “soft features”. This is why Y would be in trouble, going on features alone. I said specifically that I’d need an adam’s apple check (not visible in the photo), BECAUSE the problem isn’t her “features”. The problem, as I specifically mentioned, is her MAKEUP USE, which is way over the top for a normal woman, especially by local – or as you would say “latin” – standards.
Two kinds of people use make up like that in Rio – at least off the stage: transvestites and a few prostitutes. Mostly transvestites.
Tulio sez:
What is all this nonsense about questioning her womanhood. She doesn’t have even the slightest glimmer of masculine features. When you see a black tranny, you KNOW it’s a tranny.
Really, Tulio? Without doing an adam’s apple check?
You need to stay out of the Rio de Janeiro zona, too. 😀
If Abagond allows himself to take a prejudiced cheap shot, I presume that I can take one too: I forgot that Americans are used to seeing women apply make-up with a spackling trowel. 😀
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I think Thad is just covering all his bases. One can never be too sure. 🙂
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One can never be too sure in this town, particulalry.
If I see someone way vamped out (which is what that much make-up implies in Rio), I wonder.
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@tulio:
I disagree. Apparently, some men in Thad’s neck of the woods, have been successful in fooling others as well.
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I could set up a series of Brazilian trannies that would blow your collective minds.
Not that ALL trannies can fool people, but many can.
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I saw a couple of black transgendered woman on this talk show years ago and they fooled most of the audience. And I know white transgendered women that look very much biological women. One is 6’0″, but people just tell her she should be a model.
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Ó Dochartaigh
Thad
I think for most Americans Latino usually means Mestizo, because it seems like the majority of Latinos in America are more Amerindian than white, or any other race for that matter. Aside from Cubans and Puerto Ricans.
Ó Dochartaigh,
Although there is a STEREOTYPE that American Latinos are mostly mestizos, this is NOT correct. Afro Latinos (which includes Latinos from the Caribbean and regions of Central and South America) are also part of the American Latino designation.
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Laromana
I know Afro Latinos are a part of American Latino population, but I thought it was a small part.
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Although there is a STEREOTYPE that American Latinos are mostly mestizos, this is NOT correct. Afro Latinos (which includes Latinos from the Caribbean and regions of Central and South America) are also part of the American Latino designation.
Here’s my colleague, Bela Feldman-Bianco:
http://www.google.com.br/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unicamp.br/unicamp/unicamp_hoje/ju/setembro2007/fotosju373-on-line/9.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.unicamp.br/unicamp/unicamp_hoje/ju/setembro2007/ju373pag09.html&usg=__1RDyALhT0ITWx5F_aTLaE4ExY6Q=&h=331&w=220&sz=97&hl=pt-BR&start=108&itbs=1&tbnid=FMX4bVlRhNswIM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=79&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgiralda%2Bseyferth%26start%3D105%26hl%3Dpt-BR%26sa%3DN%26tbo%3D1%26rlz%3D1W1RNTN_pt-BR%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1
Not very mestiço-looking, is she?
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I could set up a series of Brazilian trannies that would blow your collective minds.
That’s not all they could ‘blow’.
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Thank you Peanut and Agabond for addressing this stereotype that black women (especially those with distinctively African features) look mannish.
I looked at her picture and saw a pretty woman. And since you titled your post ‘Would You Date This Woman’ It didn’t cross my mind you would use a transgendered person’s photo.
Geez! most black women I know look like women!!! Why inject such a pernicious stereotype into this conversation?
Peace
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Well Thad…
I dont know. I dont wear much make up( I recently started to wear foundation) so I dont who why some American women wear a lot of make up.
I would have to say she did it for the photoshoot. I have heard that the face looks more dynamic if the make up is dramatic. …
I dont know, I cant say for certain…
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In Thad’s defense he DID NOT say all, or even some, black females look like men.
However I too wonder why non-black men (Thad being excluded) feel so comfortable labeling black women as mannish…even the beautiful ones…
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What are you talking about, people? What’s so wrong with her make-up? I don’t find it “that” strong. Sure, it’s a bit heavy on the eyes, but I see girls and women with make-up like that all the time, everywhere I go. True, my culture has strong standards on female beauty that practically requires make-up, so I don’t see what’s so “suspicious” about the make-up on this woman.
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I would have never thought her to be transexual. I think that she is very pretty. She has a very familar look. Like one of your friends or relatives.
Y,
You’re very pretty as well. You look more college age, though.
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I also don’t understand how the woman above could be considered mannish.
Anyway, what I like the most about this woman is her lips. Full and plush.
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“Although there is a STEREOTYPE that American Latinos are mostly mestizos, this is NOT correct. Afro Latinos (which includes Latinos from the Caribbean and regions of Central and South America) are also part of the American Latino designation.”
If you’re going to refer to Caribbean Latinos en masse as “Afro Latinos”, it is only proper to refer to Mestizos as “Amerind Latinos.”
Remember, in Latin America, black blood isn’t viewed as a contaminant that overwhelms and destroys all other ancestries one has, like it is in the US.
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Geez! most black women I know look like women!!! Why inject such a pernicious stereotype into this conversation?
First of all, no one seaid she was “mannish”: the problem is her make-up use.
Secondly, why are transvestites “pernicious”?
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I suspected her to be transexual, not because she looks like one, but because I figured Abagond might have been planning some kinda “gotcha” moment for all those men (like me) who said they would have sex with her and all the rest.
I think she’s fine, btw. The makeup thing doesn’t bother me, since when modelling that is often a requirement.
@ tulio:
“When you see a black tranny, you KNOW it’s a tranny. Only Asian men can seem to be able to pass themselves off as women and fool a lot of people.”
You ain’t seen “The Crying Game”?
Also, this woman could pass for South East Asian quite easily. I have a lot of Indonesian relatives who look like this.
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I am bisexual, and date both men and women.
Sure, assuming that there was an intelligent, witty mind behind the pretty eyes. I’ve grown enough to require more than just a certain level of attractiveness in my partners. Mental congruity and attraction is much more important than what exactly is in the pants. That said, I like women as women and men as men. I have met some transgender people I would have dated, but they were either partnered or not dating at all when I met them, so the question was moot. It’s about people for me, ultimately.
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You ain’t seen “The Crying Game”?
Hey! Put a spoiler warning, man.
But then again:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllThereIsToKnowAboutTheCryingGame
Sorry for the off topic. It’s almost half past 4 AM and I can’t sleep.
I still don’t get what’s so wrong about this woman’s makeup. I see that everyday and it’s considered normal.
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…as much as people love to make fun of bw and call us masculine and mannish and apes, why would abagond add to that by putting up a man dressed as a WOMAN??? i find that odd…also most people wear makeup especially models when taking pictures…if abagond put up this picture would any of yall be questioning her gender??? http://shanalogic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads2/puprlelips.jpg
i highly doubt it, its only when its a black that’s the cheap shot
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I still don’t get what’s so wrong about this woman’s makeup. I see that everyday and it’s considered normal.
I Serbia, perhaps. Not in RdJ.
For one thing, you’d melt if you used that much make-up here. It would completely f#$% up your complexion, too.
…as much as people love to make fun of bw and call us masculine and mannish and apes, why would abagond add to that by putting up a man dressed as a WOMAN?
Black women are also glossed as hyper feminine, too, but Abagond seems to have no problem feeding that particular stereotype with the images he chooses.
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Regarding that image, peanut, she looks equally tranny to me. Vamped out.
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Y,
It is the morphology, which is typical of Black females, broad shoulders, waist to hip ratio smaller, because of high waist-ness. Also because our features are larger, wider nose and bigger lips, it doesn’t fit the image of petite-ness, which is associated with the feminine.
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I never really thought black women looked masuline
Im not saying Thad does either
you have to understand, he is out there in the trenches doing feild research work with prostitutes in Rio so he gets to see a lot of men dressed as women…
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Nope, this person looks not like a man actually, but like a teenaged boy wearing makeup and women’s clothes. I detected it in most of the photos, but it’s especially true in pictures 4, 7 and the one entitled, “Look at my Soul”.
At first looking only at the one photo featured with the blog article, I figured this was a not a girl but a woman in her 30’s because “she” has a certain hardness to her face. However, after looking at the other photos I realized I was looking at a boy rather than a woman. For one thing, this person has a large head and very large facial features (chin, very wide forehead, large hard eyes and especially “her” large nose) for a girl/woman with such a small frame. “Her” skin has a certain coarseness to it and “her” upper lip is MUCH thinner compared to the bottom lip — a feature found mostly in males.
And I also have to agree that the heavy makeup was probably used in an effort to conceal the fact that this person is really a male.
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Boy, do I ever.
Which is also why I consider the view that Black men can’t get away with this to be absolutely nuts.
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islandgirl said:
“I would have never thought her to be transexual. I think that she is very pretty. She has a very familar look. Like one of your friends or relatives.”
Same here. It did not even cross my mind that she could be seen as anything other than a woman till Thad’s comments.
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Ó Dochartaigh said:
“I think for most Americans Latino usually means Mestizo, because it seems like the majority of Latinos in America are more Amerindian than white, or any other race for that matter. Aside from Cubans and Puerto Ricans.”
That might be true for the country as a whole, but in some parts of it, like New York, it is not. There Latinos seem to come mainly from the Caribbean.
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Thad said:
“That’s a cheap shot and an example of bullsh$# at it’s finest, as well as a great example of not giving a damn about what a commentator is actually saying.”
I would like to say I am sorry for losing my cool but somehow I cannot.
Here is my point of view: I post a picture of a woman who I not only think is beautiful but who looks very much like the women I know. Then you jump on here and start wondering if she is even a woman! Then when I get offended you turn it on me and say that I am the one who is dealing in prejudiced cheap shots! Your gall is just utterly amazing.
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This woman is pretty. To the people lying to themselves saying she looks like a man/ teenage boy I doubt if your spouse looks half as good as she does.
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Here is my point of view: I post a picture of a woman who I not only think is beautiful but who looks very much like the women I know. Then you jump on here and start wondering if she is even a woman! Then when I get offended you turn it on me and say that I am the one who is dealing in prejudiced cheap shots! Your gall is just utterly amazing.
First of all, I had no idea that you had a personal attraction to the woman in question (or her doppelganger), so to accuse me of “gall” is ridiculous. I’m making a simple reactive comment: to call that “bitter” is pure projection on your part, based on your personal feelings about the woman in question.
Secondly, I do not personally consider it an insult to say that a person looks like they might be a transvestite. You obviously do. That’s your call, however, not mine. I do feel that someone shouldn’t go out with a transvestite unless they happen to be into that sort of thing – thus my concern as to whether or not the person in question is biologically a woman or a man. For my part, I think that men who look like women and women who look like men are sort of cool, but I enjoy sex with women, not men.
Finally, as I said above, I do not think the woman in question looks “mannish”: I was very specific about why I wondered if she was or not a transvestite: it’s her make-up. It makes her look vamp and what we in the biz call “iconically feminine”. That usually indicates one of three possibilities: transvestite, prostitute, or actress. “Transvestite” was simply the first thing that popped into my mind while applying a “carioca” (or as you would have it, “latino”) filter. My presumption, given your intro, was that I just ran into this woman socially, not seeing her up on stage. If I saw someone with makeup like that in a social situation, my first reaction would be “tranny or pro”? In Rio, trannies are more likely to over-do the makeup than pros.
So given your intentional misreading of my reaction, which I clearly explained above, yeah, you took a cheap shot.
Apparently you took it because you feel offended that a woman you know and are attracted to could be seen at first glance by another man as a transvestite.
Get over the homophobia, Abagond: that sort of thing happens all the time. It is, in fact, the reaction transvestites aspire to. All it means is that the woman in the picture enunciates a very iconic and produced sort of femininity – exactly the sort of vamped out femininty that transvestites take for their model.
It seems to me that you’re not pissed at my gall, Abagond.
It seems to me you have some other issues boiling away here which maybe you need to look a bit deeper at.
Leaveumthinking sez:
To the people lying to themselves saying she looks like a man/ teenage boy I doubt if your spouse looks half as good as she does.
Actually, I’d probably find her PRETTIER is she was LESS iconically feminine, Leaveum. If iconic femininity is what rocks your boat, that’s fine: it isn’t what I prefer. I’m sure that there may be a beautiful woman under all that make up and photoshop filtering, but I can’t tell, so to me she’s just “pretty”. Nothing that really rocks my world.
I’m much more attracted to my non-make-up using wife than I am to the woman in the picutre, thanks Leaveum. Given that you apparently think that iconic femininity is the epitome of female beauty against which all other women should be measured, then it’s safe to assume that you would find my wife more “mannish” simply because she doesn’t cater to that particular male fantasy.
But I am very happy that she doesn’t.
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Herneith wants me to discuss why I think people who use that much make-up are manipulative.
Quite simply because they want the world to see them as something they aren’t.
We aren’t talking a bit of rouge and blush here, Herneith: we’re talking racoon eyes, extremely highlighted forehead and cheekbones and lips painted candy apple red.
It’s a vamp look. And why do people go vamp? To convince others that they are something they are not.
Actresses, models, transvestites and prostitutes do it professionally, for different reasons. If I’m to presume that a sexual/affective relationship between me and that woman is possible, I need to presume that I met her in a social situation. Why would an everyday woman in an everyday social situation want to look like that? What is it? Her debutante ball? That – or something like it – might be why she makes herself up like that, but then again, that’s simply another form of acting: pariticpation in a recognized and formal social ritual.
Someone who’d use that much make up normally, at least here in Rio, is someone who has a serious gender agenda and I am very wary of people like that.
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Just to remind everyone, this is what a pretty woman looks like when she’s not wearing make up:
Not nearly quite so iconic, is she?
And before anyone here whines about “white guys think Beyoncé is the epitome of female beauty”, I don’t happen to personally think Beyoncé is as attractive as, say, Whoopi Goldberg was when she was young. I’m simply using her pick because it is a recent and rare image of a feminine icon caught without her makeup.
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Oh, and by the way, when I first saw Lady Gaga, I was dead convinced that she must be a tranny.
It ain’t a black thing, folks.
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Honestly, who cares if the woman is wearing a lot of make-up and it looks unfeminine or unbecoming. That’s not the point of this thread.
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@Leigh204
I know I read through all the comments and was laike
Ummmm…whaaaa??? lol
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However, after looking at the other photos I realized I was looking at a boy rather than a woman. For one thing, this person has a large head and very large facial features (chin, very wide forehead, large hard eyes and especially “her” large nose) for a girl/woman with such a small frame.
Paisley,
I do think her features are somewhat wide for her face, but I don’t think she’s a male. She’s just wearing too much dark make-up in those photos, which can make even the most feminine woman look “draggish.” Since she has soft, rounded features, it makes her look like a boy instead of a man. But she looks beautiful in the “Look at My Soul” and “Goodness.” Much like a darker version of the model Noemie Lenoir:
“her” upper lip is MUCH thinner compared to the bottom lip — a feature found mostly in males.”
I was looking at her bottom lip, wondering why it was so huge in comparison to her top lip; very unproportional. But it seems the “portrait” in this post distorted her features, as the original photo shows more even lips and the other photos show perfectly even lips.
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@Natasha W:
I also checked out her other pics and you’re right, her lips are perfectly even. I also mentioned in an earlier post that I like her lips as it is full and plush. I like lips like that.
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@Aiyo
I hear ya! When I looked at the pic again, I was thinking there was no way in heck that she, in anyway, resembled a man. It boggles my mind how some people think so.
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Thad:
I assumed that anyone over the age of four would have noticed that the picture has been processed somehow. Look at her skin for goodness sake! Which means that the PHOTOGRAPHER has taken liberties with her appearance, that it is not just some picture taken on the street like this one:
https://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/sharri-of-blog-the-the-brisk-convergence.jpg?w=294&h=400
But no, to you it was more likely she was a man! And my reaction was dismissed in standard Thaddean ad hominem fashion:
“It seems to me you have some other issues boiling away here which maybe you need to look a bit deeper at.”
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I shared this photo with a friend and she thought she was beautiful and looks like some of her family members, etc. Never crossed our minds that she was anything other than a woman… she’s very attractive and sexy – I don’t need the rest of her body to reinforce that thought, either.
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Given that you apparently think that iconic femininity is the epitome of female beauty against which all other women should be measured, then it’s safe to assume that you would find my wife more “mannish” simply because she doesn’t cater to that particular male fantasy.
Actually I think your wife is pretty. That comment was mainly for Paisley. But you too should be ashamed of yourself. You know that theres streotypes about black women being ugly and looking like men so why would you (a man who is married to a “black” women) even bring something like that up.
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@ Thad,
I think you need to realise your understanding of why women wear makeup is pretty narrow. I’m not personally a fan of heavy makeup, but women do it for various reasons – to cover up blemishes, or because it is part of the subculture or peer group they belong to. Or just because they feel like something different on that particular day.
My own first thought about the makeup was that it was part of the look the photographer was going for.
“Secondly, I do not personally consider it an insult to say that a person looks like they might be a transvestite. You obviously do”
I have never met any women, ever, who would find it to be any less than a serious insult if someone said they looked like a tranny.
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@Eurasian Sensation:
Nooo kidding!
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Her amount of makeup is perfectly within normal range for Southern California. (That is, most women I know would wear less than that, but I could easily run across women on the street with that much makeup who aren’t prostitutes, it wouldn’t seem odd to me at all, and I’d think it quite normal for a woman to wear that kind of makeup for modeling.)
I also think she’s pretty, FWIW, and, as a bisexual woman, I’d certainly date her if her personality were equally appealing and if I wasn’t already married (as well as introduce her to my family if things worked out, and marry her if it were the case that I wasn’t already married and that we lived in a place where such a marriage is legal, and that our personalities matched sufficiently for that to make sense).
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Leigh asks (and quite rightly):
Honestly, who cares if the woman is wearing a lot of make-up and it looks unfeminine or unbecoming. That’s not the point of this thread.
Frankly, I had no idea that my throw out comment was going to attract a flame-fest. The only reason I’m even talking about this anymore is that Abagond seems to think that I find over-produced black women “mannish” and that this is the result of deep-seated racist values.
Which is simply bulls#$%, for the reasons I’ve repeatedly pointed out above: make-up, not skin color, is what’s affecting me here.
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As to whether or not she resembles a man…
I realize that many people posting here are sheltered when it comes to gender issues like this, so let me be plain: the POINT of being a transvestite is to not resemble a man.
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But no, to you it was more likely she was a man! And my reaction was dismissed in standard Thaddean ad hominem fashion….
Ad hominem? C’mon, Abagond! You live to tell people that they have issues they haven’t worked out.
We’ve been around this particular block before. While I think your analysis of race is generally spot on, I also feel you have real problems when it comes to gender. That’s not “ad hominem”: that’s an honest and up-front appraisal. EXACTLY the same type of thing that you do when you claim this or that white person obviously has some racism issues that need to be worked out.
As for implying that a woman may be a man, that is not an insult to me. I don’t insult people by calling them gay or cross-dressers or by implying that they are gay BECAUSE I DON’T BELIEVE THAT GAYS AND CROSS-DRESSERS ARE INFERIOR HUMAN BEINGS.
Again, your mileage obviously varies. You’re seeing an insult because to you, being a transvestite is a degraded condtion. As I saaid before, that’s your problem, not mine.
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@Thad:
Then why keep talking about it? The woman in the pic is definitely a woman. Yes, she wears heavy make-up up there, but that doesn’t make her a man or look mannish. I wore heavier make-up in the 80’s than that woman and no one ever thought of me as a man.
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Leaveum sez:
But you too should be ashamed of yourself. You know that theres streotypes about black women being ugly and looking like men so why would you (a man who is married to a “black” women) even bring something like that up.
There are also plenty of stereotypes about black women being über-feminine and iconically sexy. This is, indeed, what feeds North American sexual tourism to Brazil. And yet you don’t seem to have a problem with the photos of this type which Abagond is constantly posting, Leaveum.
Why? Or as Herneith would say, “discuss”.
There are a lot of race stereotypes when it comes to gender. To complain about someone inadvertently adding to one while defending another person who consciously and constantly feeds another is a bit odd.
If one were to read Abagond’s posts regarding black women, one could easily be forgiven for coming to the conclusion that the only “hot” black women are those who are iconically feminine – let’s say perhaps 1% of the members of ANY female population. All this talk about “thick” versus “thin” on this blog hides the simple fact that unless you have model looks, Abagond apparently doesn’t consider you to be beautiful.
I’ve seen many of the blogs of the people posting here: the majority of the women who do so, going by their pictures, don’t look anything like the women that Abagond daily classifies as “beautiful black women”. So it’s a wonder to me why y’all find this sort of thing personally empowering.
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Thad,
“There are also plenty of stereotypes about black women being über-feminine and iconically sexy. This is, indeed, what feeds North American sexual tourism to Brazil.”
I’ve never heard of that stereotype. Brazilian women aren’t considered black for the most part to the people I know. I’ve heard “I love Asian women, black women, Brazilian woman.” They are considered “mixed.”
Just sayin’. I don’t consider your initial comment to be inflammatory, but I can see why it could have been taken that way.
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ES sez:
I think you need to realise your understanding of why women wear makeup is pretty narrow.
You misunderstand my point. I did not say “people who use make up”: I said “people who use make up like THAT”, “THT” being the example in the photo in daily life.
I understand that this might be a bit complicated to follow, given the back and forth above, but I’m not crusading against make up use in general (though personally it doesn’t do a thing for me).
I have never met any women, ever, who would find it to be any less than a serious insult if someone said they looked like a tranny.
Yeah, women can be homophobic as well as men. I’ve noticed that, too. In this case, however, I’m not saying that a woman looked like a tranny: I seriously wondered what the deal was there. I figured that Abagond was attempting to pull a quick one on us.
But the point of transvestitism, again, is to be confused for a woman, ES. Whether or not women find it uncomfortable that some men can pull off that sort of gender performance is, again, not my look out. I’m not responsible for people feeling put off when their prejudices bite them on the a$$.
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Then why keep talking about it?
Because I’m being lectured.
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Thad said:
“You’re seeing an insult because to you, being a transvestite is a degraded condtion. As I saaid before, that’s your problem, not mine.”
It is not just me and my issues boiling away inside: I think it is safe to say that over 90% of women would be insulted if you told them you thought maybe they were a transvestite.
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Natasha, take my word on this: it’s what Ana and I study.
Yes, Brazilian women are considered to be “mixed”. However, many white Americans and Europeans point out that it’s their “black” blood which supposedly makes them über-feminine and exotic, a la Fanon. The point being that negritude does indeed “spice up” that mix, for all that it’s not completely determiniative of it.
And let’s set Brazil aside and talk about sexual tourism in Africa: what do you think is being said by those men regarding the African women they go for? Precisely that these women are exceptionally feminine and iconically beautiful.
This steroeotype is at least as prevalent as the mannish stereotype. Hell, it’s encoded in American slavery memes as “Jezebel”. Please don’t tell me that you’ve never heard of it.
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It is not just me and my issues boiling away inside: I think it is safe to say that over 90% of women would be insulted if you told them you thought maybe they were a transvestite.
You write a blog based on the idea that at least 90% of white people are racist.
I happen to concur with this idea.
Now, are you supposed to curb your tongue because racists might be bupset at what you say?
I thought not.
I am likewise not req
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….I am likewise not required to curb my tongue simply because 90% of people (women or men) are homophobic.
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So it looks as if the keyboard problem could be universal ha ha
With regard to:
Just sayin’. I don’t consider your initial comment to be inflammatory, but I can see why it could have been taken that way.
Others take it ‘that way’ because of his writing style, and how uses inuenodos etc.
What difference if the woman is a transvestite or not??
Abagond asked a question is this woman attractive etc..The pre-supposition that we should accept her as female…even if she is an alien from Mars
Its really strange…
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Thad,
“Yes, Brazilian women are considered to be “mixed”. However, many white Americans and Europeans point out that it’s their “black” blood which supposedly makes them über-feminine and exotic, a la Fanon. The point being that negritude does indeed “spice up” that mix, for all that it’s not completely determiniative of it.
This steroeotype is at least as prevalent as the mannish stereotype. Hell, it’s encoded in American slavery memes as “Jezebel”. Please don’t tell me that you’ve never heard of it.”
Oh, are you talking about the “hypersexual” stereotype? Then, yes, I’ve heard of it. But hypersexual != hyperfeminine. Femininity is understood to be a completely different characteristic, consisting of modesty, petiteness, and classic lady-like behaviors, all of which black women are sorely lacking in and Asian women are dripping in… to the undereducated American.
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@Thad:
Then why keep talking about it?
Um, from what I can see of these posts here, it’s coming from you.
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Thad,
How could implying a woman is a man ever be an insult to you? Since you aren’t a woman, it doesn’t seem like you get much say, hmm?
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Thad,
How does “being offended at being taken for a man” = “homophobic”? I would guess that most straight women would take offense because they want to attract straight men, most of whom are interested in “feminine” (whatever their personal definition is) women. So telling a woman she looks like a man is essentially saying she doesn’t have a shot in hell at attracting a straight man, which probably sounds like “ugly” to her ears.
Honestly, the tit for tat over whether saying a Black woman looks mannish is racist or not sounds awfully similar to what that cartoonist said when he “inadvertently” drew Obama as a monkey getting shot.
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Leigh, I’m hardly the only person talking about this here. If you don’t like it, why not ignore it?
Let’s review what I originally said, people.
I did not say “OMG! That’s a tranny! Ugh, what a mannish looking woman!!!”
I said:
“As a carioca man, my first question would be can we safely assume that ‘she’ is not, in fact, a ‘he’?”
This was followed by my commenting to the effect that many beautiful looking “women” in Rio are in fact men. I then explained the logic behind my statement:
“WAAAAY too much make-up, which is why my trans-radar went off.”
Now, somehow this has been turned into me believing that black women are mannish (for the record, said woman wouldn’t even be considered black by most Brazilians but mestiça) and attacking the female gender as a whole by observing that some men can pull off a successful gender-bender.
Seriously, people, there are a lot of nasty presumptions flying about here and I’m not the one who’s making them.
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@ Hathor
I dont buy that… If this was the case ASIAN women would be stereotypes as looking like men.
A lot of people have this idea that Asian women have small, petite features but look at Asian women all the time and a lot of them have broad features too. Most of them do not have think noses, plenty have thin lips though. Even Japanese and North Chinese women have relative broad noses. Asian women from the Philippines and Thailand have broad features, noses and lips included, and they are seen as beautiful.
People are just using broad features on black women as an excuse to insult black females. To be honest I dont care if men like black women or not, I just dont want them to insult black features
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How does “being offended at being taken for a man” = “homophobic”?
Because the base emotion underlying that offense is that its is disgusting or somehow wrong to be sexually classified as a person of the opposite gender. That view, in turn, is most often based on a deep fear of sexual ambiguity.
I would guess that most straight women would take offense because they want to attract straight men, most of whom are interested in “feminine” (whatever their personal definition is) women.
Why that should cause offense, absent fear of sexual ambiguity, is beyond me. That’s like saying whites who move out of a suburb because some blacks move in aren’t being racist, they’re just sincerely worried about property values – as if the one precluded the other.
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How could implying a woman is a man ever be an insult to you? Since you aren’t a woman, it doesn’t seem like you get much say, hmm?
ROFL! Let’s apply that same logic to race, shall we?
Aren’t black people on this site CONSTANTLY making affirmations as to what white people fear and/or get insulted over? 😀
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ROFLMAO!!!
Ana and I just cold-turkeyed Dona Wanda, my 68-year old black carioca mother-in-law, with the photo and poll. Needless to say, she is indeed female.
What were the first words out of Dona Wanda’s mouth?
“É travesti?” (“Is that a transvestite?”)
😀
B.R. and Colorofluv, how about you cold turkey some older Brazilian in-laws on this one and see what reactions you get? Just translate Abagond’s words and ask them to classify the person in the photo.
😀 😀 😀 😀
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@Thaddeus:
Well, of course, you’re not the only one. However, as much as you talk about being lectured, YOU’RE the one doing the lecturing.
Duly noted. IGNORED.
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Thad, I also had initial thoughts about whether the pictured woman was actually a man, just because of the context it was being shown in.
But I barely noticed the makeup to be honest. Maybe because I see people who look like that quite often, but primarily because I figured it is part of the context of the picture, rather than how she looks every day.
Btw I don’t think it’s homophobia for a woman to feel offended at being compared to a tranny. Essentially it implies they look not so much like a woman, but like someone “pretending” to be a woman. I’m guessing lesbians would be pissed at it as well.
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Thad,
You’ve been in Brazil too long. There are many on this blog who have never been there either and not accustomed to what the Brazilian female phenotype would be.
So, what your mother-in-law says isn’t significant in our wonderment as why you would initially think this woman a transvestite.
As Natasha said, I never heard any of the Black woman stereotype being feminine. I have been around a little longer that she.
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Thad,
Can you read? Making a comment about your level of offense about something that could never logically be applied to you is different than nothing what someone else finds offensive.
I’m hopping on the train with Leigh–have you ever heard that saying about when everyone thinks it’s you, it probably is? Methinks thou doth protest too much…And great job pulling out the “My Black best friend (or mother-in-law)” card.
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Y,
I agree, but Black women on the average are much taller. The Vietnam War had an influence about Southeast Asian women,Firstly the soldier went their with the myths from the Korean war about Asian women and then because of the consequences of war, many women fulfilled the soldiers Asian vision. They pampered the soldiers in live in situations or did domestic work for next to nothing compensation.
So even though that may have similar features as Black women they are not perceive the same way. Even though it is not culturally correct, they are still considered the Geisha.
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Hathor sez:
You’ve been in Brazil too long. There are many on this blog who have never been there either and not accustomed to what the Brazilian female phenotype would be.
Or maybe you’ve been in the U.S. or England too long? Why is the anglo-american experience normative in this sort of thing when the poll clearly seeks to stipulate “racial” differences? Are such differences understood to be valid only if the occur in the anglo- context?
Now, I can understand why you might wonder, given your background. But your reaction is really not my responsability, is it?
As Natasha said, I never heard any of the Black woman stereotype being feminine. I have been around a little longer that she.
Jezebel sterotype. This is a VERY feminine stereotype, unless your definition of “feminine” needs must mean “modest”.
Jasmin sez:
Making a comment about your level of offense about something that could never logically be applied to you is different than nothing what someone else finds offensive.
Huh? Sorry. Lost me there. Please make that point a bit more clearer.
I’m hopping on the train with Leigh–have you ever heard that saying about when everyone thinks it’s you, it probably is?
So popular stereotypes are in fact the truth, then Jasmin? Or, to put it more succinctly, the majority is always right? That’s an odd position for an anti-racist to affirm, given the history of race.
Methinks thou doth protest too much…
Who’s protesting?
And great job pulling out the “My Black best friend (or mother-in-law)” card.
Hey, I just described it like it occured. I’ll tell Dona Wanda that you think she doesn’t exist, OK? 😀
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Ana wants to know what people think about Preta Gil:
(Nude breasts warning): http://colunistas.ig.com.br/curioso/files/2009/02/pretagil.jpg
She comments that the kind of black women displayed as beautiful here are fairly narrow in terms of their range. Abagond’s description of “thicnk” and “thin” black beauty seems to her to be predicated on an a priori acceptance of iconic female beauty that very, very few human women can ever obtain, black or white.
So she’d like to know why Preta is less beautiful than, say, Adriana Bom-Bom.
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If Thaddeus changed his response when viewing a too made up woman from “better be cautious/verify gender” to “oh look, familiar black beauty” his life would take a disastrous or at least very bumpy turn. *smile*
Well, embarassing, to say the least.
Though it must be said: transvestites are generally very flattered when you honestly mistake them for women.
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Once again, this is very interesting, because I honestly can’t tell what is so WRONG about her makeup.
I’m telling you, hot girls here are expected to wear much makeup. Do these look like transvestites?
They are considered extremely hot and feminine in the best way. Now, I might not like this style, but I’d never think about them being transvestites.
PS-My husband voted “she’s pretty” in the poll. I don’t think he wanted to go any further because of me, lol.
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Thaddeus,
Now tell me how I would get a Brazilian perspective? You were stating the obvious except that it isn’t coming from a superior perspective, just a perspective that I live in. Apparently you didn’t understand the preface in my comment.
Having only one experience is not the same as thinking that it is the only experience.
I didn’t think that this was anyway nuanced.
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@ Hathor
Agreed…
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That second woman isn’t wearing much make-up, Mira. I don’t get the point. She just looks like your average airbrushed model.
HERE’S what I’m talking about:
And what do you think about this NON-made up woman, by the way?
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Hathor, I don’t feel my persective is superior. I DO feel that it is unjustly being criticized as “racist” by people who have some pretty heavy preconceived notions as to what female beauty supposedly is.
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There are also plenty of stereotypes about black women being über-feminine and iconically sexy.
I never heard of these stereotypes.
This is, indeed, what feeds North American sexual tourism to Brazil.
Guys go to Brazil with the idea that the women are going to look like Jennifer Lopez (mostly white /native american features and hair with a stereotypical black womans behind) They do not go there to see “pure” black women. Men who truly want to see beautiful black women would go to Africa instead.
And yet you don’t seem to have a problem with the photos of this type which Abagond is constantly posting, Leaveum.
All this talk about “thick” versus “thin” on this blog hides the simple fact that unless you have model looks, Abagond apparently doesn’t consider you to be beautiful.
Abagond likes thick women so since when is thick considered model looks? All the best paid super models and the majority of the most famous and most beautiful women in the world are thin. I do not share the same taste with Abagond. If you compare my most beautiful women list with his you will see the difference. While I think women of any size can be beautiful I prefer thin. To me tall slender women have a more elegant look but thats my opinion just like abagond has the right to his opinion.
I’ve seen many of the blogs of the people posting here: the majority of the women who do so, going by their pictures, don’t look anything like the women that Abagond daily classifies as “beautiful black women”.
What are you implying here?
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I realize that many people posting here are sheltered when it comes to gender issues like this, so let me be plain: the POINT of being a transvestite is to not resemble a man.
Depends on the transvestite, actually. I used to live in the SF Bay Area, and there were plenty of drag queens there who were both quite frankly and obviously male, and clearly playing with iconic feminine clothing, hairstyles, make up, etc.
Obviously, there are also other transvestites who go to greater lengths to look like actual women.
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abagond just told us the woman is not a man, so i don’t get why some people are still b*tching and ranting and questioning the gender..get the hell over it already. you can scream about how you question the gender about any ole woman, but the only time i ever actually see this debate go and on and on like this is when its involving a bw…i still am suspicious about the motives of some of the men on this blog
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i just can’t believe this topic started out to supposedly praise or evaluate the beauty of a black woman and it got hijacked into a praise questioning her gender….im astounded
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FG,
“If you’re going to refer to Caribbean Latinos en masse as “Afro Latinos”, it is only proper to refer to Mestizos as “Amerind Latinos.”
Remember, in Latin America, black blood isn’t viewed as a contaminant that overwhelms and destroys all other ancestries one has, like it is in the US.”
Don’t know how I missed this comment…
But this was spoken like a person who has very little experience with Latinos.
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I never heard of these stereotypes.
Funny. No one here has ever heard of the “Jezebel” stereotype, even though it gets brought up in half of the threads regarding black women.
Are you saying you’ve never heard of this stereotype, Leaveum? Or are you saying it’s not an überfeminine stereotype? “Jezebel”, by the way, is represented in the African Brazilian pantheon as Pomba gira and she’s widely considered to be woman incarnate.
Guys go to Brazil with the idea that the women are going to look like Jennifer Lopez (mostly white /native american features and hair with a stereotypical black womans behind) They do not go there to see “pure” black women. Men who truly want to see beautiful black women would go to Africa instead.
Yes and no. I wager I’ve interviewed far many more sex tourists than you, Leaveum. The stereotype men claim they go for here is Beyoncé and Halle Berry, not J-Lo. I have never heard a sex tourist in Brazil bring up J-Lo because that biotype is not at all common here: Beyoncé’s is.
But let’s say you’re correct. Let’s say African descent has nothing to do with why mern go to Brazil. Fair go: millions of European tourists flock to Africa for sex as well because, again, black women are considered to be a uber-feminine – a biologically rather than culturaly based feminine, yes. But feminine, nonetheless.
Abagond likes thick women so since when is thick considered model looks?
Compare Abagond’s so-called “thick” women to the stunningly beautiful picture of Preta Gil which Ana had me post above and get back to me. Abagond’s definition of “thick” is simply a slightly more T&A version of iconic model (read plastic) beauty.
What are you implying here?
I’m flat out STATING that the kind of women Abagond considers to be the epitomé of female beauty – of any color – are so rare as to be basically mutants. I fail to see how exhalting a basically unobtainable standard of beauty somehow supports women’s self-esteem.
So when Abagond goes on about “insulting women”…. Hell, frankly I think most of the women he finds beautiful are so over-produced that they might as well be transvestites anyhow.
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“A lot of people have this idea that Asian women have small, petite features but look at Asian women all the time and a lot of them have broad features too. Most of them do not have think noses, plenty have thin lips though. Even Japanese and North Chinese women have relative broad noses. Asian women from the Philippines and Thailand have broad features, noses and lips included, and they are seen as beautiful.
People are just using broad features on black women as an excuse to insult black females. To be honest I dont care if men like black women or not, I just dont want them to insult black features”
response: cosign we all know the stereotypes about west african features being “masculine.” so why the same people on here keep trying to talk that stereotype away and in the proces demeaning and insulting more bw is mind-boggeling. why is it that of all the pictures abagond has posted, the one post that involves rating a bw on her beauty/feminity she is questioned for being a tranny??? It has nothing to do w/ homophobia, its just rude to keep going on and on about it when we’ve established that IT IS A WOMAN. Why keep going on about it…i agree w/ Leigh on that.
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@Lynn:
I used to live in the SF Bay Area, and there were plenty of drag queens there who were both quite frankly and obviously male, and clearly playing with iconic feminine clothing, hairstyles, make up, etc.
Just a point of order: drag queens and transvestites are two different things. Female drag mocks femininity – gently or roughy. Male transvestitism tries to flawlessly reproduce femininity in a male body.
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all of yall who keep going on and on about this woman’s gender need to go to this blog: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/is-the-white-goddess-blog-a-satire/
and degrade bw along w/ everyone else on there. Btw both women he features are wearing makeup…i guess they’re trannies too.
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A serious question, Peanut: what do you think of those last two pictures I posted?
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Thad,
I’m flat out STATING that the kind of women Abagond considers to be the epitomé of female beauty – of any color – are so rare as to be basically mutants. I fail to see how exhalting a basically unobtainable standard of beauty somehow supports women’s self-esteem.
Plenty of women have taken abagond to task about his unrealistic ideals. It’s pretty much a given that at the very least a few people will be offended at any of his post on beauty and women.
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Who said your mother-in-law doesn’t exist? I’m questioning why you think OP should care when you dutifully trot out a Black person who agrees with you, as if to say, “See? This Black person said it, so it must be so.” But I’m sure you know what the “Black best friend card” is and are being willfully ignorant, as usual. I would think that would get old, but mmv.
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“Yes and no. I wager I’ve interviewed far many more sex tourists than you, Leaveum. The stereotype men claim they go for here is Beyoncé and Halle Berry, not J-Lo. I have never heard a sex tourist in Brazil bring up J-Lo because that biotype is not at all common here: Beyoncé’s is.”
Really? I was aware that a big chunk of the Brazilian population has an appearance that Americans would regard as either white or black. But I thought it also had a large number of in-between people that have the physical characteristics Americans refer to as Latina/o, though they’re mixed black-white rather than Amerind-white.
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Thad,
I think you have developed your own terminology as to the “feminine.”
If Black women tell you that in their experience that feminine isn’t a stereotype, why is it that you insist? Why is it that white people always want to rewrite black folks personal history to accommodate their views.
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Just a point of order: drag queens and transvestites are two different things.
I’ve generally heard the word “transvestite” used as a generic term to cover the whole range of men dressing as women, so that it would include obvious drag queens (like Sister Boom Boom), people who are doing a more thorough approximation of a woman’s appearance (such as the Lady Chablis) and men who never crossdress in public but privately wear women’s clothing for sexual gratification. But I don’t want to derail the thread too far, so I won’t dispute that your definition might be the more used academic one. All I’m saying is that even people who have plenty of personal experience encountering genderqueer people of one variety or another aren’t automatically going to read “Is this woman a transvestite?” as a question that you can take for granted as assuming that the woman looks particularly feminine.
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Natasha sez:
Plenty of women have taken abagond to task about his unrealistic ideals. It’s pretty much a given that at the very least a few people will be offended at any of his post on beauty and women.
OK, fair go. So I’m supposed to be a bastard with gall because I apply a different eye to beauty than Abagond? I mean come on!
Jasmin sez:
I’m questioning why you think OP should care when you dutifully trot out a Black person who agrees with you, as if to say, “See? This Black person said it, so it must be so.”
Y’know, Jasmin, not all the world is made up of memes and programming. What happened, happened. I found it hilarious because the first words out of D. Wanda’s mouth were literally those: “Is that a transvestite?”
This isn’t a “card”. In fact, I’d like to see what other Brazilians say about this. And with regards to “black”, I think D. Wanda’s nationality on this issue is a lot more determinative of her reaction than her color.
FG sez:
Really? I was aware that a big chunk of the Brazilian population has an appearance that Americans would regard as either white or black.
Sure, but J-Lo’s type isn’t very Brazilian – Beyoncé’s is. Unless, of course, you consider J-Lo and Beyoncé to be basically the same physical type.
J-Lo is not anything near “black” in Brazil: she’s white or “moreninha” (“kinda slightly brown”) at best.
What Americans consider to be “Latina” is not really our most common national bio type.
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Hathor asks:
If Black women tell you that in their experience that feminine isn’t a stereotype, why is it that you insist?
Because plenty of OTHER black women have told me otherwise. The hypersexualization of black and mestiça femininity is a well-known and well-commented phenomenon. It’s at the basis of the Jezebel stereotype. Black women scholars like Deborah Grey White and Angela Davis have commented on it. And given that, coupled with the fact that the female posters here are quick to bring up the Jezebel stereotype when it happens to be in their interest to remember it, I feel that I’m on very safe ground saying “bullsh$%” when suddenly nobody remembers this stuff in the context of the present argument.
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@Lynn:
I’ve generally heard the word “transvestite” used as a generic term to cover the whole range of men dressing as women.
I know. No criticism is implied.
But today’s gender studies tend to make a distinction between the two because they are socially different phenomena.
All I’m saying is that even people who have plenty of personal experience encountering genderqueer people of one variety or another aren’t automatically going to read “Is this woman a transvestite?” as a question that you can take for granted as assuming that the woman looks particularly feminine.
I don’t take anything for granted. What bothers me is the presumption that I needs must have a racist agenda because my “eye” in this case doesn’t conform to the heteronormative, iconic one.
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Funny. No one here has ever heard of the “Jezebel” stereotype, even though it gets brought up in half of the threads regarding black women.
Are you saying you’ve never heard of this stereotype, Leaveum? Or are you saying it’s not an überfeminine stereotype?
I believe Natasha already answered this but this is my take on it
Jezebel= oversexed whore
ultrafeminine= delicate lady-like classy modest
I have never heard a sex tourist in Brazil bring up J-Lo because that biotype is not at all common here: Beyoncé’s is.
Are you referring to Beyonce’s biotype before or after she slaps on the long blonde wig/weave?
millions of European tourists flock to Africa for sex as well because, again, black women are considered to be a uber-feminine
These terrible men flock to Africa to prey on young innocent women/girls because they’re using their white privilege to take advatage of people who are in need.
Compare Abagond’s so-called “thick” women to the stunningly beautiful picture of Preta Gil which Ana had me post above and get back to me.
Preta is heavily airbrushed just as Abagonds women are.
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Then why didn’t you trot out what any other White Brazilians think? You wanted some “Black” (or “Brazilian”) cred–it’s OK to admit it.
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Thad,
I didn’t see Deborah White or Angela Davis here Since you haven’t been in the US lately, how could plenty of Black women from the US given you that point of view.
Academics use language quite differently than the average person, as your argument with Lynn Gazis-Sax reveals. She is speaking from experience and you are taking a very academic approach. Then it also becomes a question of whose academic discipline, especially in the social sciences.
Angela Davis may have been using a sardonic observation to describe the white patriarchy’s view of the Black female. She would not necessarily draw from the popular vernacular, because it may not place the emphasis on what she wanted. Of course I am only speculating, because you gave me no reference.
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With regard to:
“Then why didn’t you trot out what any other White Brazilians think? You wanted some “Black” (or “Brazilian”) cred–it’s OK to admit it”.
Personally, I would have to ask how do you know that this even happened, was there any contact??
Or was the scenario created merely as a figment of the imagination so as to create a difference and establish the required point.
Personally I presume it to not be true.
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Jezebel= oversexed whore
ultrafeminine= delicate lady-like classy modest
Now THERE’S a tendacious reading of femininity!
BOTH of those stereotypes are ultrafeminine: one does not subume the other, nor does one negate the other. They are flip sides of the same feminine coin. They are both stereotypical and both work to women’s disadvantage – esepcially to black women’s disadvantage.
You can’t cut one out from the other, Leaveum. There’s been a lot of work on the virgin/whore motiff as an essential construction of femininity.
Are you referring to Beyonce’s biotype before or after she slaps on the long blonde wig/weave?
LOL! Both, actually. 😀
These terrible men flock to Africa to prey on young innocent women/girls because they’re using their white privilege to take advatage of people who are in need.
Again, I’m sorry but your view of sex tourists is pretty farsical. I deal with them all the time, black and white. They are no more – or less – “terrible” than men in general. They are CERTAINLY no more likely to be pedophiles, whatever you may have heard from the sensationalistic press. (I, for one, we be more leary about leaving my daughter alone with a Catholic priest than with a sexual tourist – here in Brazil, the first sort of man is six times more likely to be a pedophile than the second.) Nor do they “take advantage” of women any more (or less) than a typical tourist does when he or she makes use of a hotel’s domestic services. Sexual work (prostitution) is not necessarily more exploitative than nonm-sexual work.
But we both digress: this is going way off topic.
Preta is heavily airbrushed just as Abagonds women are.
Sure. But I didn’t post her as an example of “natural” beauty, did I? My question is why isn’t that sort of beauty represented as beautiful?
Jasmin sez:
Then why didn’t you trot out what any other White Brazilians think? You wanted some “Black” (or “Brazilian”) cred–it’s OK to admit it.
Hey, Dona Wanda just told me to tell you that her reaction was what it was and if you don’t like it, that’s your problem.
It’s also OK to admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Hathor sez:
I didn’t see Deborah White or Angela Davis here Since you haven’t been in the US lately, how could plenty of Black women from the US given you that point of view.
There are these things called “books”, Hathor. People use them to transmit ideas. You can buy them on the internet and have shipped right to you. I know it’s low-tech, but it’s a pretty effective way of learning about what other people think. Besides which, I’ve had a few classes with Dr. Davis.
(Damn, people complain about my sarcasm, but if you’re going to go around giving straight lines like that… “How do you know what an author thinks? You haven’t talked to her.” I mean, really! 😀 )
Academics use language quite differently than the average person, as your argument with Lynn Gazis-Sax reveals. She is speaking from experience and you are taking a very academic approach.
Actually, you’re wrong. Academics like precise language, yes, but my comments to Lynn are not based on intellectual anal retentivity. They are based on deep engagement with the reality described. Academics who study gender make these distinctions because the everyday language “average” people use is too poor to describe the reality that academics observe first hand.
So this isn’t a lexical distinction created according to arcane scripture: it’s a distinction based on far more experience with cross dressers than Lynn or you probably have (no cut implied). So please don’t construct this false dichotomy which poses us eggheads against you “practical, average” people.
Next time you’re in town, I’ll be happy to take you to meet some transvestites and have THEM tell you why what they do is not “drag” and you can tell them that they are making an “academic” dsitinction. 😀
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Thad,
Was I speaking about transvestites?
“Hathor sez:
I didn’t see Deborah White or Angela Davis here Since you haven’t been in the US lately, how could plenty of Black women from the US given you that point of view.
There are these things called “books”, Hathor. People use them to transmit ideas. You can buy them on the internet and have shipped right to you. I know it’s low-tech, but it’s a pretty effective way of learning about what other people think. Besides which, I’ve had a few classes with Dr. Davis.”
Did you say something different than I?
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Thad,
Sorry wrong quote
This is the quote I meant
“Academics use language quite differently than the average person, as your argument with Lynn Gazis-Sax reveals. She is speaking from experience and you are taking a very academic approach.
Actually, you’re wrong. Academics like precise language, yes, but my comments to Lynn are not based on intellectual anal retentivity. They are based on deep engagement with the reality described. Academics who study gender make these distinctions because the everyday language “average” people use is too poor to describe the reality that academics observe first hand.”
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i find her hot, beautiful, i would marry her, take her home to meet my mother damn every last one of them!!
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topic is now back on track.
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nice one, dude007.
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@Hathor:
Thad, Was I speaking about transvestites?
When you said…
Academics use language quite differently than the average person, as your argument with Lynn Gazis-Sax reveals. She is speaking from experience and you are taking a very academic approach.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but that refers to Lynn and my discussion about tranvestites/drag queens, correct?
Or were you referencing something else?
Did you say something different than I?
I believe so, yes. You indicate that the academic approach is somehow set in opposition to experience. In fact, it’s a deeper commitment TO experience: observing it systematically and analyzing it.
Lynn glosses drag queens and trannies not because she has had a lot of experience with them but probably, actually, because of the opposite: she hasn’t had a lot of experience with them beyond the casual. Men who cross dress typically make a BIG distinction between doing it to mock and doing it to convince and social identities among these men get built on this distinction: built by THEM, not by us academics. We just report those distinctions based on our observations.
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Thad,
The example was about the method not the content.
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Thad,
You still haven’t explained why Dona Wanda’s opinion should matter to me or anyone else. Are you trying to make a point about what a Brazilian woman thinks about the picture?
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“But let’s say you’re correct. Let’s say African descent has nothing to do with why mern go to Brazil. Fair go: millions of European tourists flock to Africa for sex as well because, again, black women are considered to be a uber-feminine – a biologically rather than culturaly based feminine, yes. But feminine, nonetheless.”
response: our issue throughout history has never been whether we are biologically feminine. we have always been seen as “female,” it’s our WOMANhood that has been denigrated. we were seen as female when our bw ancestors were used as sexual brood mares to constantly increase the slave population to benefit the slave master. we were seen as female when our great-grandmothers breast’s were used to supply milk and nourishment to white children, while simulatenously having her own children snatched from out of her arms. we’re seen as female when raped, mutilated and violated. we’re seen as female when our image is dragged through the mud in hip-hop, television and other media outlets. we’re seen as female when poor, working-class black women are forced to take a depo-shot in order to obtain employment and then are forced to pay out of their own pocket to have it taken out. we’re seen as female when we’re considered good enough to fool around with sexually and never marry. we’re considered female when we’re treated as breeders and told how many children we should or should not have to benefit others….
Black women have always been seen as female, but never respected as a WOMAN and human being that has been our curse. We’re female enough to sex, screw with and toss aside but not woman enough to be worthy of respect and dignity. not woman enough to be valued for our wholeness. no, we’re broken down into parts and pieces and stereotypes. we’re female enough to carry and bare a man’s child, but not woman enough to get the respect of being the wife. this has been our story again and again and again throughout history and to this day.
Men going to africa to sex-up black women has NOTHING to do with womanhood and is yet another example of black womanhood being degraded. yet another example of the paradox of black femaleness.
as a matter of fact historically the rape and sexual exploitation of bw was used as a way to defeminize our womanhood (ironically) not reinforce it. i’m just tired of the paradox, i’m tired of being considered female-enough for lots of things, but never considered fully woman enough. sick of it. Our “broad,” and “big,” features make other women more feminine but somehow make bw more masculine…i don’t get it.
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Peanut:
“i just can’t believe this topic started out to supposedly praise or evaluate the beauty of a black woman and it got hijacked into a praise questioning her gender….im astounded”
I completely agree – and with everything else I can remember you saying on this thread.
When I put this post up I was expecting debate about her beauty or lack thereof and the reasons why. I never DREAMED that the debate would be about whether she was a woman!!!
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Thad:
Sex tourists are imperialist scum and you know it.
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Abagond,
I’ve done a boat-load of work on this topic over the last seven years. Yes, sex tourists can be described as “imperialist scum”. What they are NOT necessarily is a worse sort of “imperialist scum” than, say, your average tourist – heritage or otherwise.
Having sex with a local while on vacation does not suddenly yank a person out of the category of “good tourist” and toss them into the category of “imperialist scum”, especially given that tourism itself is generally predicated upon imperialism.
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@Hathor
The example was about the method not the content.
Your presumption seems to be that the method doesn’t involve practical experience when, in fact, it involves MORE practical experience than what “average” people get.
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response: our issue throughout history has never been whether we are biologically feminine. we have always been seen as “female,” it’s our WOMANhood that has been denigrated.
Yes, but the entire debate has been regarding the biological feminine. I never doubted the person in the photo’s “WOMANhood” – that is a gender performance and some men pull it off very well. “Woman” is a social construct, not a biological one.
Gender versus sex, Peanut.
Again, would you please take a look at these photos here…
…and tell me what you think. Good examples of womanhood or no? Like SW6, do you get a “wrong” feeling when you see Lady Gaga, or is she unambiguously a woman to you?
Because to me, the woman posted here gives off the same vibe.
And what about the second photo, the woman with no make up: does she seem more womanly to you than Lady Gaga or not?
I’m seriously curious as to what people have to say about this, seeing as how “womaness” is supposedly so unambiguous and easy to spot.
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Lynette said:
“Was this woman aware that she would be judged by the people on this blog? I sure hope she never reads these comments.”
I know! I might be forced to take this post down.
If the model in the picture is reading this (*cringe*) all I can say is that I think you are very beautiful – it is why I picked your picture in the first place. Unfortunately, given the nature of this blog, it attracts racist jerks who have surprised even me with the lengths they have gone to this time.
I posted your picture elsewhere and it was very well received:
http://abagond.tumblr.com/post/542653596/paint-me-by-art-wuk
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Well then, why would you make this comment:
“But let’s say you’re correct. Let’s say African descent has nothing to do with why mern go to Brazil. Fair go: millions of European tourists flock to Africa for sex as well because, again, black women are considered to be a uber-feminine – a biologically rather than culturaly based feminine, yes. But feminine, nonetheless.”
YOur comment sounds like sexual exploitation of african women by wealth european tourists is somethhow validating black womanhood? which i’ve explained it is not from my perspective… why would you use that comment to reinforce black female femininity??
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Face up to it, Abagond: you’re upset and it has nothing to do with racism at all. It has to do with the fact that you feel uncomfortable with the fact that a guy asked if a picture of a woman you’re attracted to was, in fact, a transvestite.
It doesn’t matter that the question was due to the person’s make up use and that this was made quite clear before anyone here raised the spectre of racism.
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YOur comment sounds like sexual exploitation of african women by wealth european tourists is somethhow validating black womanhood?
Nope. I said not a word about “womanhood” and that was quite intentional. I said “femininity” and clearly stated that what i’talking about here is the Jezebel stereotype: a racist and biologizing view of black sex (not gender).
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Thad:
1. Adriana Bombom is amazing looking.
2. Preta Gil does not have a pretty face in the eyes of this beholder, but she does have a nice body. I love big thighs.
3. Lady Gaga I did wonder about. She is all right in the picture you gave, but in at least one of her videos she looks questionable, like she was in drag.
4. Yes, the women in my thick women post have Hollywood looks that are fake and beyond the reach of most women. Because I used celebrities as examples of the differences between thick, thin and fat. I used celebrities since they are widely known.
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What about the woman in the second photo, the one below Lady Gaga, the one with no make up at all?
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Yes, the women in my thick women post have Hollywood looks that are fake and beyond the reach of most women. Because I used celebrities as examples of the differences between thick, thin and fat. I used celebrities since they are widely known.
Understood, but this same pattern follows through in almost every post you make about “beautiful women”: they are almost all iconically feminine mutants.
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Thad:
A Brazilian women who is fatter than Adriana Bombom that I like – like MORE than Bombom in fact – is singer Paula Lima:
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Just reposting two posts from another thread, where Abagond and I seem to have both jumped, erroneously….
Abagond sez:
Thad:
The second one looks kind of plain to me, but on the pretty side of plain:
http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/10-mais/files/2010/02/roberta-close-divulgacao.jpg
…and I said:
Do a Wiki for “Roberta Close”, Abagond, and realize that the photo is of a 46 year old woman with no make-up.
Not bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Close
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Thanks for the cross post.
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The Wikipedia:
“Roberta Close (born in Rio de Janeiro on 7 December 1964) is a Brazilian model. The first pre-operative transsexual model to have posed for the Brazilian edition of Playboy, Close is probably Brazil’s most famous transsexual woman.”
picture:
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Paula Lima is cute, but THIS is who I like:
Unfortunately, Martinalia is a lesbian.
Or Cassia (unfortunately another lesbian)…
Or if you prefer a more fem look and a woman who’s not a lesbian, how about the young Elza Soares?
Btw, that’s not a photo of a minor: Elza was born in 1937, so that photo is of her in her thirties.
Hell, Elza is hot even today at 73 years old. Here’s Elza with her new 21 year old husband – 52 years of age difference.
There are other forms of female beauty out there in celebrity land which go beyond the iconic.
(OK, I will admit that Elza at 73 is getting a leeeeetle bit up there into tranny land, if she doesn’t watch it.)
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Roberta, btw, looked way more feminine before her operation:
Does she look “mannish” to anyone out there?
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Well……. normally I don’t post on the weekend. I usually do that on “company time”. lol…. However, I happen to have taken the week off to work on my house back in STL. (I’ll check on that author/book I told you about Abagond in another post. About the Black author who mentored my dad.)
Anyway, this is interesting. First, I hate plastic surgery when it comes to sexuality, but I will tell you that Brazil probably has the most attractive Transexuals that I have ever seen. (although I’ll give a shout out to the Tahitian ‘ladies’ I discovered while watching Anthony Bourdain on his culinary adventures.)
Either way, its not for me. I can make an observation and say, wow – You are really sexy. You look great. My experience in Brazil (especially Sao Paulo) has taught me that you cannot rely on stereotypical jugdements to determine masculinity/femininity. But, I digress – this is mostly due to the part of plastic surgery and hormone therapy. I believe that Mother Nature provides all that we need. Does that mean I don’t appreciate beauty when I see it? Be it artificially created or natural, I still appreciate beauty. To each their own… Give me respect, you get it. Give me friendship, I’m your friend. Give me love, I love you: But respect me for who I am. I am not a conformist. Say what? I respect you, but respect me too: Now, lets talk.
Abagond – when are you going to do that post on conformity? (I think O’D had mentioned it.)
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Sorry Abagond…
@ Peanut… there are a lot of European women who actually go to Africa, principally the North African countries along the coast seeking “toy boys”.
The sex industry is prevalent world wide and it is like a Mega Mart: We sell what you want.
As for trans gendered individuals: live and let live. Respect and be respected…. What was that, Oh yeah – THE GOLDEN RULE. While I may not approve of organized religion, the golden rule is a pretty good guideline to rely on.
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It should be pointed out that PLENTY of African American men are also involved in sexual tourism. For better or worse, this seems to be a guy thing, not a white thing.
And as CoL rightly mentions, the ladies seem to be catching up very quickly.
“How Stella Got Her Groove Back”, anyone…?
Oh, I’m sorry. That’s not “sexual tourism”: that’s love. Which is why author McMillan’s 20+ year younger husband came out as gay 7 years later.
Wonder what kind of settlement he’ll be getting in the divorce, seeing as how he’s a much younger Jamaican man, presumably without American citizenship and presumably much poorer than McMillan?
No economic motives behind that marriage, to be sure. Certainly no exploitation. I mean, it’s not like McMillan was a 54 year old man married to a 20-something lesbian woman from a third world country. Then we’d know for a fact that it was evil imperialist exploitation.
Right?
[roll eyes]
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@ Thad –
You make great points. You are an intellectual and an Anthropologist. You have an advantage over many people. At the same time, you have the same disadvantage. For you suffer the same judgment as everyone: We are all equally judged preducially regardless of profession, color, creed, nationality, etc… (fill in the blank) – or all of the above. And that is sad.
I often times think you are doing some “study” on the opinions contained within this blog. I hope that is not the case. I would like to think that you can “forget” your academic ideology sometimes (without drinking too many caipirinhas) and simply engage in conversation without fact, but simply emotion – the emotions of Thaddeus Blanchette. Now, wouldn’t that make a good book?
Cheers, Saude, “Cheen, Cheen”, To your success and happiness…
(as I take a drink)
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I often times think you are doing some “study” on the opinions contained within this blog. I hope that is not the case. I would like to think that you can “forget” your academic ideology sometimes (without drinking too many caipirinhas) and simply engage in conversation without fact, but simply emotion…
That is, in fact, what I do here. And I’ve heard from several people that I SHOULDN’T do that because apparently getting a professorship is like joining a monestary: once you’re in, you’re no longer allowed to be anything else.
And then, of course, there are the constant lovely comments to the effect that actually reading books, learning and teaching a subject (which is the bottom line definition of an “academic”) somehow prevents one from having any “practical experience” with the world.
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(Meaning “relax and forget school” is what I do here, not “study” the opinions).
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No economic motives behind that marriage, to be sure. Certainly no exploitation. I mean, it’s not like McMillan was a 54 year old man married to a 20-something lesbian woman from a third world country. Then we’d know for a fact that it was evil imperialist exploitation.
exploitation is exploitation doesn’t matter if its african-american men or not going to africa. and in terms of mcmillan entirely different seeing as she MARRIED the man didnt’ just sex him up pay him a dime and then go back to the US. that’s a little differennt now isn’t it??
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“As for trans gendered individuals: live and let live. Respect and be respected…. What was that, Oh yeah – THE GOLDEN RULE. While I may not approve of organized religion, the golden rule is a pretty good guideline to rely on.”
We’re talking about transvestites and why they are being equated with the young woman in the picture when abagond made it clear she was in fact a female and not a male…
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@ Thad… I was going to say something sarcastic and venture in to “sacanagem”, but I will digress. I have the utmost respect for you. Trust me. (but you can’t, this is an internet blog) I appreciate your honesty. I appreciate the fact that you put yourself out there publicly. There is no hiding behind a masquerade. I commend you on your courage & conviction.
At the end of the day ( so to speak ) I try as much as possible to leave my profession behind. I find however, once ingrained in your thought pattern, nothing is ever quite ‘binary’ thinking anymore. You carry it with you throughout you daily business – including personal business.
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@ Peanut
Suffice to say that conversation for merit of this discussion deemed this topic worthy to address the question of discrimination, prejudice, hatred, macho, feminism, attitudes towards women, men, transgendered, gays, lesbians, etc based on prejudiced ideals and images of what one traditinally thinks of as “normal”.
Peanut, rememer that normal is what any given society defines as such. “Normal” could be anything. However, in racial terms, normal is not really so “normal” if you think about it.
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Ok, can we move on now?
Since this “experiment” failed (thanks to Thad and his digressions), may I suggest (again) a male model for women to vote? After all, there are more women of all races commenting here, and while most of them are black, I bet you’d get many votes from women of different races.
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Mira:
Do you (or anyone else) have any picture in mind?
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@Mira:
Yes, let’s move on. *thumbs up*
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Mira:
Do you (or anyone else) have any picture in mind?
Hmmm… No, not really. 😦
All I’m saying is that you should pick a model who can pass for an everyday guy, instead of a celebrity or a “too sexy to be real” model.
I’m not saying it’s your fault for what happened in this thread (it is Thad’s fault), but going for a guy/girl next door might be a better tactic for what you’re trying to do (what I think you’re trying to do).
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@Mira:
Well, this person has a tendency to monopolize threads. Look at his essays on here. 😉
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and in terms of mcmillan entirely different seeing as she MARRIED the man didnt’ just sex him up pay him a dime and then go back to the US. that’s a little differennt now isn’t it??
Oh, I see. So as long as you get a priest to say some vows over you, it’s no longer exploitation, right? 😀
Peanut, first of all, despite what romance novels might indicate, few 20 year olds marry 50 year olds because they’re swept off their feet by a wave of passion. In McMillan’s case, I’m going to take a wild guess and say that it was the promise of a green card and cash which made Plummer “forget” he was gay for a few years.
Interestingly enough, he seems to have remembered just about the time his “permanent resident” status could no longer be revoked by divorce. 😀
Bottom line: MaMillan used her superior economic and social position to rent herself a piece of a$$ for 6 years. Whether she rented one boy or 50 and whether or not she got the Churches’ blessing for her adventure doesn’t change in the slightest the fact that she went to Jamaica to buy sex.
Marriage doesn’t make it any less exploitative, Peanut.
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We’re talking about transvestites and why they are being equated with the young woman in the picture when abagond made it clear she was in fact a female and not a male…
No we’re not.
After Abagond made it clear that she was a woman, I for one no longer questioned her sex.
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The comments about the pictured woman and the ensuing commentary slid into the realm of the ridiculous. Oh well.
It seems the chief fear was the fear of straight men feeling duped into stating that a transsexual was attractive. Wow. Talk about insecurity.
Meanwhile, the most interesting aspect of the poll were the numbers. Of course there is no way to verify any of them.
Nevertheless, according to the vote tally:
Latino votes: 81
Asian votes: 67
Black votes: 165
White votes: 197
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It is exhausting arguing with academics, especially with ones in the social sciences or philosophy.
I know because I’ve studied and you haven’t. Then I think does this represent all instances. There are so many variables, is it an opinion garnered from enough data and is it the only valid conclusion?
If you don’t have credentials or studied enough then nothing you ever say can have any validity in their eyes and even your own experience is invalid, although it may be one of those variables. A variable that the academic has failed to use or hasn’t found in their studies.
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Thad:
What difference, if any, is there between prostitution, marriage and rape?
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Thad said:
“After Abagond made it clear that she was a woman, I for one no longer questioned her sex.”
True, but that did not stop you from defending your position to the bitter end that she LOOKS LIKE she might be a man.
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I’d really like to see your interpretation of the poll results. It seems nobody found her ugly and many men of all the races would marry her.
Then again, what people say on a poll and what they do in real life might be two different things. We all like to think we don’t have prejudices.
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Adriana BomBom is okay. I wouldn’t say she is amazing by any measure. She looks way more like a transsexual than the woman on this post. None of the Brazilian women posted here have been all that gorgeous at all, in fact. In my honest opinion.
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I know because I’ve studied and you haven’t.
And you think this is a bad thing? An informed opinion?
Hathor, I could care less about your “credentials”: do you study transvestites and other people playing with gender? If not, why should you have an informed opinion? “Experience” without systematic reflection generally leads to stereotypes and prejudices when it comes to this topic.
A little systematic observation, backed up by reading and discussion, is nothing to be ashamed of.
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True, but that did not stop you from defending your position to the bitter end that she LOOKS LIKE she might be a man.
Wrong. I defended why I thought she MIGHT be a man initially because you and others were accusing me of seeing her as “mannish” because you think she’s black. (I see her as mestiça and overly made up. The second characteristic was determiniantive in my initial reaction.)
If your reaction would have been a simple “She’s a woman, for sure,” or even “Hahaha are you CRAZY?”, none of this would have erupted.
Natasha sez:
None of the Brazilian women posted here have been all that gorgeous at all, in fact. In my honest opinion.
Not even Elza? Let’s see you look that good at 73 (though I’ll admit the plastic surgery around the face is pretty obvious). 😀
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@Abagond:
Thad:
What difference, if any, is there between prostitution, marriage and rape?
Historically or today? Or both?
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Thad,
Not even Elza? Let’s see you look that good at 73 (though I’ll admit the plastic surgery around the face is pretty obvious).
Especially not her.
I’ll send you some pics when I get to that age… if you’re still alive then. 😛
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Thad, your naivety (or nastiness) amazes me here. Don’t tell me you didn’t know what would people think about your comment. Don’t tell me you didn’t know what kind of poster Abagond was- don’t tell me you didn’t know he’d never post an image of a transsexual to fool us.
I don’t think it was your goal, but honestly, your comment seemed like a derailment and your being white gave some “unfortunate implications” about not wanting to discuss whether you find said model beautiful, or whether you’d have sex with her and introduce her to your family.
I am not one of the people who sees you as a racist liberal jerk (or whatever), and I often get your point even when nobody else does because we study similar disciplines (archaeology, anthropology). However, I do think you are unable to tell difference between academic discussion and an “ordinary” one. You always seem to be lecturing people, no matter what they say, even if they say the same thing as you.
Sorry if this counts as ad hominem. Abagond, delete this comment if you find it inappropriate.
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Personally…I think it was his goal Mira
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Here is a much better look at Elza Soares, shot about 10 years ago:
Elza is gorgeous inside and out . And, a great part of her beauty is her artistry.
Coudnt get to the inlaws, Thad , but, just an opinion here, you got into this by being your flipant self.
You did the same to me when you said that condomble in Rio was a surviving because of the gay presence (using a flipant term I cant remember now) , implying it was a gay thing when you know that the black woman is a key part of it.
When I defended that it was a black woman oriented thing , you tried to turn the tables on me and say Im homophobic.
Im not saying you are homophobic or racist in this case, Im saying you like to provoke and be flipant on here.
You even said yourself that you are paid to be polite in your classes but dont come on here for that. You come on here to provoke and argue and be flippant and lecture.You love this controversy…
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The younger Elza Soares – that is my kind of woman! The older one, not so much.
Wonderful singer, btw. First heard of her when watching a movie about her ex-husband, the soccer star Garrincha.
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Thad,
Another thing, you do not stay on topic, you define what others say.
I’ve had experience with other academics besides you and my statement even though it included you, was a generalization.
My experience or yours with transvestites was not the issue.
Another example would be your response to Abagond. You can not be straight forward and answer his question, you have to parse it first.
What difference, if any, is there between prostitution, marriage and rape?
He ask the question in the present tense, why is it that you can not answer it in the present tense. You want to change the context to get precision? No, it is so that you can frame the argument to be consistent with your interpretation that only fits in the context you choose.
When Black women said that we aren’t defined as being feminine, it is in a cultural context, not in the academic world or in some book. It is how we interact with society, what we have been told by actual people and seen in the popular media, magazines; TV and the movies. Growing up in the South under Jim Crow, I was constantly reminded that my Blackness wasn’t the feminine. We had to aspire to the feminine; speak,sit and walk a certain way, our natural bodies had to be bound, less we were considered loose or common, e.i. Jezebel. Our upbringing had to aspire to fit into that white society, when that day finally came. My grandmother lamented that my body matured to quickly. I had no delicacy, no fragileness. You see the feminine meant white woman. But since you didn’t study that or didn’t read that in a book it is not valid. BTW, I am sure that Angela Davis went though the same stuff I did.
How academics choose to frame an issue is not necessarily how the real world sees the issue.
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Mira,
I totally agree with your idea about judging a man. That would be more interesting anyway as women’s looks are judged so often, it gets boring.
I suggest Maurizo Fahad.
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Forgot to include pic.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3444612352/nm1867180
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I don’t think Elza was that great looking, young or old. I’m just thinking… if she is considered “hot” then men must really be blown away by black women because I see more beautiful black women than her every day. The women on this blog are perfect examples.
islandgirl,
“I totally agree with your idea about judging a man. That would be more interesting anyway as women’s looks are judged so often, it gets boring.”
It does get boring; I agree.
“I suggest Maurizo Fahad.”
This person?
Hot. 🙂
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“Forgot to include pic.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3444612352/nm1867180“
Again… hot.
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Definitely hot. He does look like an ex boyfriend of mine (who was a jerk), but I hope I wouldn’t judge poor guy badly because of that 🙂
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Also, he doesn’t look black. I am not sure if that’s the point of the poll, to see if people of various races find black women/men attractive and how far would they go with them (just noticing if they’re hot, just having sex, or dating, introducing to the family and marrying).
If model doesn’t have to be black, I think Maurizo is a good choice because he’s not too familiar face (at least not to me) so it’s possible to pretend he’s an “ordinary” guy you meet on the street.
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Natasha, I find Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughn and Betty Carter to be beautiful also
Yeah,you could say its a matter of opinion, but, I cant seperate Elza’s beauty from her art , and, she is on the same leval as those wonderful singers
I love that women, just being next to her in person is a trip, I just get that weak feeling in my knees.
Elza is beautiful inside and out
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Yes, Natasha!;) I see we have similar tastes . I chose him because he is my “type”. That type of look gets my blood boiling.lol Dark, exotic and sexy.
Mira,
You’re ex-boyfriend must have been gorgeous!:) You are so lucky (jerkiness aside). But so was he.
No, he’s not black. I wasn’t thinking in those terms when I suggested him. I chose him because he is sort of ambigous and could appeal to almost any race. And you’re right, he is not a familar face, but is someone who you could easily see in the streets of NYC. He looks like a “hot” average joe.
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1) I worry that any continuation of the whole transvestite discussion may just make the thread worse, but I’m going to clarify one small thing:
Lynn glosses drag queens and trannies not because she has had a lot of experience with them but probably, actually, because of the opposite: she hasn’t had a lot of experience with them beyond the casual. Men who cross dress typically make a BIG distinction between doing it to mock and doing it to convince and social identities among these men get built on this distinction: built by THEM, not by us academics.
It’s not so much that I gloss all these groups of people as being the same (at least, not in my own mind) as that the way I learned to make distinctions makes no sense of what anyone is saying in this thread. The way I learned to slice things, a) drag = conscious performance that plays with the opposite gender with no intent to actually fully appear female, b) transvestite = specifically men who do this as a sexual fetish in private (i.e. the DSM-IV meaning of the word), c) transgender = people who take on a different gender role full time, while still being their birth sex, and d) transsexual = people who actually transition. But that way of slicing things can’t be what anyone was thinking by “transvestite,” so I went for the one other meaning I had available, namely “anyone at all who crossdresses for any reason whatsoever.” It seems that Thad is using “transvestite” to mean what I think of as “transgender.”
I can’t see why transsexuals would be called transvestites at all; once you’ve transitioned in every way (legally, socially, hormones, surgery) in my mind you simply are a woman, not a cross dressing man. And I’d expect the average transsexual woman to be offended at being described as a transvestite, just as I’d expect the average cissexual woman to have the same reaction. Also, the women I know who are transsexual don’t overdo make up; they use make up the same way as any other SoCal woman, so I never took the thread to be discussing them. On the other hand, I can see why one might use the word for transgender (and even use it for transgender as a way of distinguishing it from drag), since transgender but not transsexual people are still legally and in various other ways of the sex they were born into, even if they’re interacting with people with a different gender.
FWIW, I have friends who are transsexual, have seen drag queens only on stage, and my experience with transgender people who don’t transition is confined to online. But I think, though I have no doubt that Thad has more experience than I do with the set of people he studies, that our terminology difference may be more that my main contact with social sciences comes from being a psych major decades ago, and so when I reach for academic terminology I think of DSM-IV (hence the narrow meaning of “transvestite” that seems to match no one else’s in this thread, and hence the reach for a broader meaning that still doesn’t match Thad’s).
At any rate, all I meant to do by bringing drag queens into the thread was to explain why “transvestite” might be associated in people’s minds with “mannish,” since there’s a form of cross dressing that’s both iconic feminine and frankly male (and quite deliberately both).
2) I find the woman under Lady Gaga more attractive than Lady Gaga.
3) I also find Elza Soares attractive.
4) I’m all in favor of Mira’s idea about judging a man.
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the model must be black- I just thought that, maybe, that was Abagond’s point.
As for my ex, no, I wasn’t lucky, since he was a jerk. But I was really young (18) and if nothing else, “thanks” to him I learned to stay away from men who know they are attractive and who treat women like crap.
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I’d give a definite thumbs up on Maurizio Rasti.
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the model must be black- I just thought that, maybe, that was Abagond’s point.
I actually initially took Abagond’s model to be ethnically ambiguous (could be black, could be Latina, could be South Asian). But that may mean my ethnic identification is screwy, since practically everyone else seems to see her as clearly black.
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The woman in the original post is not ambiguous by the average American’s standards… she looks like a pretty black women.
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I would prefer a black male model – or at least one as black as the woman in the post – just to make things more comparable later.
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I must admit I never thought of her as “ambiguous”, she seemed like a black woman to me (and my standards are different I guess). On the other hand, Maurizio Rasti doesn’t look ambiguous to me either, but I understand why someone would see him as that.
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Mira:
Right, at some point I am going to look at the results and write something about it – either here or, if I have enough to say, as a post.
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Can we have Morris Chestnut for a black male then?
…Lol, just kidding.
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Another problem in finding an appropriate male model is the fact pictures are rarely portraits- they usually include body and that can be… um, distracting. 😛
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@ Lynn,
But that may mean my ethnic identification is screwy, since practically everyone else seems to see her as clearly black.
My initial hunch was that she was probably black or Latino, or both. But context can mean a lot. Put her in different parts of the world and she could blend in quite easily. There are plenty of Pacific Islander girls who look like that. Equally in Indonesia or the Philippines, or India, she would not look out of place. She looks a little bit like my mother (Indonesian) when she was young. Remember there is an Indonesian guy who makes a living in SE Asia from his resemblance to Barack Obama!
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“I learned to stay away from men who know they are attractive and who treat women like crap.”
It’s funny you say this. I discussed this topic with my friend over the weekend. We think that very attractive men get a bad rap. There are plenty of unattractive men who are jerks, cheaters, abusers. If anything, attractive men are used to the attention so they are not so tempted to cheat or be jerks.
Trust me, I’m dealing with a not so attractive man (I hate calling people outright “unattractive”) now who is a TOTAL jerk (my boss). But I had some very attractive bosses who were the best supervision that I’ve ever had.
But, I get your point, Mira.
Mira,
What would would you guess Maurizo as, then? I had no idea when I first saw him on the show “Kept”.
The woman on the post looks like a black woman to me. There is nothing ambigous about her, imo.
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I was not going for ambiguity since to me she is just plain black. The photographer himself put her under “beautiful black” on Flickr (and counts her as female, by the way).
Her race is much clearer in other pictures. Here her skin is given a copper colour and her hair is racially ambiguous. She is also dressed in a way where she could come from almost any country. So I see what people mean when they say she is ambiguous or mixed.
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islandgirl,
I’m not saying attractive men are jerks. I do believe, however, that men (or women) who know (or think) they are oh, so attractive tend to be a bit screwed up. A big ego can totally ruin someone’s attractiveness, imo. I’m all for being confident and I dislike when someone whines about being ugly all the time, but I don’t trust people who approach the world in a for of: “I’m hot, look at me!”
It is possible to be attractive but not aware or not interested in that fact. My husband is very attractive and he has the most beautiful hair that I fell in love with the first time I saw him- but he doesn’t find himself handsome and he is not comfortable in being seen as such.
Needles to say, there are many unattractive jerks, but that’s another problem. I guess I was trying to say I’m more for down-to-Earth types than “I’m hot, that’s a fact”.
I like men who are faithful and not womanizers. It’s possible to be an unattractive womanizer and faithful handsome guy, but I do find those who see themselves as hot and those who enjoy the attention as not so faitful types. And that’s always a bad thing about a man. I respect faitful men (and women) more.
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@islandgirl
What would would you guess Maurizo as, then? I had no idea when I first saw him on the show “Kept”.
I thought he was white, but one of those darker whites. Greek, for example (my ex was half Greek). Or Middle Eastern. There’s also something “exotic” about him (exotic to me), but I don’t think I’d see him as something else than white.
@Abagond
I was not going for ambiguity since to me she is just plain black. The photographer himself put her under “beautiful black” on Flickr (and counts her as female, by the way).
I thought she was black, period. Beautiful black woman. Nothing ambiguous about her look, at least not in my book. I didn’t even find her makeup to be particularly strong or strange. I wouldn’t call her “an average black woman”, because I understand she’s a model, but I thought it’s possible for a man to imagine meeting someone who looks like her n his job, at a party, school reunion etc.
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I know someone who looks pretty much like her and she is black all the way.
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abagond,
Here her skin is given a copper colour and her hair is racially ambiguous.
Her hair looks relaxed. She is a copper tone, but aren’t many black people? My friend from Nigeria is the same color.
Lynette,
“I’m beginning to think that people must equate Black with being unattractive. The woman is not the least bit ambiguous. Does she appear ambiguous because she happens to be attractive?”
I think that’s what it is, really. Nearly every black woman that is considered attractive by a good amount of people has been called “ambiguous” or “mixed.” It says a lot about how black women are viewed in society.
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“Oh, I see. So as long as you get a priest to say some vows over you, it’s no longer exploitation, right?
Peanut, first of all, despite what romance novels might indicate, few 20 year olds marry 50 year olds because they’re swept off their feet by a wave of passion. In McMillan’s case, I’m going to take a wild guess and say that it was the promise of a green card and cash which made Plummer “forget” he was gay for a few years.
Interestingly enough, he seems to have remembered just about the time his “permanent resident” status could no longer be revoked by divorce.
Bottom line: MaMillan used her superior economic and social position to rent herself a piece of a$$ for 6 years. Whether she rented one boy or 50 and whether or not she got the Churches’ blessing for her adventure doesn’t change in the slightest the fact that she went to Jamaica to buy sex.
Marriage doesn’t make it any less exploitative, Peanut.”
Thaddeus…are you kidding me?? In this coutry marriage affords rights to both people, community property rights, citizenship rights, financial rights, insurance rights….when you go and sex someone and pay them barely anything and then go back to your own country that is FAR more exploitive. Atleast when you’re legally married in this countr you are entitled to rights, furthermore the man got his rights as a citizen for marrying Mcmillan, he may have married her to get a green card, but that marriage solidified his rights and protected him from being exploited actually. Had he just lived with her and sexed her (like a sex slave) he could just be deported and given no monetary or financial benefits, no rights to stay in the country. that is the difference…atleast when you’re married you legally keep your rights. I can’t even believe you would imply that going to foreign countries as a tourist and paying small sums of money to people struggling in third world countries is JUST AS EXPLOITIVE as marrying that person, that doesn’t even make any sense…
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also in this country and most european countries, marriage implies consent, you sign a paper stating that your WILLING and legally commiting yourself to this person…so not that is not nearly EVEN ON THE SAME LEVEL as going to third world countries for sex and no commitment or value for the person. How dare you even make that comparison how offensive…that to me is watering down how exploitative sexual slavery and sexual exploitation is…
anyway, i’m tired of debating w/you and i’m tired of reading your posts again and again for now…
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But context can mean a lot.
I was thinking that context might be why I’m off from the rest of the people in the thread in my perception (that and the relaxed hair); I live in a county with a lot more Latino people than black.
But, bottom line, if practically everyone else in the thread sees her as unambiguously black, my perceptions are the ones that are screwed up. You guys are right; I’m wrong. She’s a beautiful black woman.
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Lynn,
“I live in a county with a lot more Latino people than black.”
But Latino is not a race. There are black Latinos. She could very well be Latino. Latino and black are not mutually exclusive.
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Lynette, please at least hear those of us who have proclaimed we love black women, I have stated many times I love black women of many shades and find black women of a very dark shade to be very attractive as well as light shaded black women.
I think people are talking more about it than actual people coming in saying they dont like women of color.
I really wish I could pass this on to any black women here, who have said that things they see here make them feel upset.
There are lots of men of all colors that love black women.
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“There are lots of men of all colors that love black women.”
That’s true! Lynette, don’t let some negative comments get you down. Focus on the men who adore black women.
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SW6,
“But Natasha,
Black also is not a race-and yet the term is used.”
Yeah, yeah, race is not a biological reality… I know that, believe me. But I think you understood what I meant.
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But Latino is not a race.
It tends to get treated as a “race” here in California. But I’ll admit it has even less biological reality to it as a “race” than race usually does, given that rather a lot of Latino people look pretty much like me, and rather a lot look not very much like me at all. I’m happy to consider Latino not a race for purposes of discussion on this blog, since it’s a pretty confusing “racial” category anyway (it makes a lot more sense to me as a cultural category than a racial one).
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The term “Latino” used in a proper way does not refer to a group united by common phenotype (i.e. a race). It refers to everyone who has roots in Latin American culture of course.
However, many Americans seem to attach a different meaning to the word. It’s commonly reserved for people of Latin American origins who look Mestizo, regardless of what their actual racial background is. Rosario Dawson is a black-white biracial with a Hispanic mom and Anglo dad. She’s regarded as Latina because she has a Spanish first name and sort of resembles Mexicans. On the other hand, Cameron Diaz, who also has a Hispanic parent, is pretty much just regarded as white because of her Aryan appearance.
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Lynn,
“It tends to get treated as a “race” here in California. But I’ll admit it has even less biological reality to it as a “race” than race usually does, given that rather a lot of Latino people look pretty much like me, and rather a lot look not very much like me at all.”
It’s not treated as such where I am from. My hometown has many Carribean Latinos from the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico. Some identify as black (and many do not, despite being presumed to be), i.e. black Dominican, black Puerto Rican, etc. So I don’t know if Latino will ever become a separate “race” category.
SW6,
“The only thing i’ve been able to come up with is use “basic” “practical” terms like white/black/latino/etc while knowing not to be over invested in some concept behind the term.”
I agree with you on the practicality point. That’s how/why I use the terms. But I see the concept of race as useless and essentially only creating ways to discriminate, divide, and encourage hierarchy.
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Abagond,
I think you should use someone who has done a self portrait on Flikr. I was thinking about what Lynette said. How that person would react if she knew how her image was used.
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Do you (or anyone else) have any picture in mind?
Do you have all day, the rest of the week, hell the next year?
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WOW! I havent been commenting as often as I like because Im out of town.
The semantics game that is being played on the post is astounding to say the least.
Thad, you seem to be an intelligent man. Im sure you know where Peanut et al are coming from when they say black “femininity”, specifically the perceived hypersexuality, is different than the femininity that is applied to women of other races, namely white and Asian women.
There is a difference between hypersexuality and femininity, and you know that. Hypersexual sluts are not seen as feminine. They are good for having sex and playing around but for all intents and purposes they are basically veiwed as women with the mindset and behaviors of men(horn dogs). Women that are feminine are seen as more sensual and modest, they are sexy but in a refreshing way. They have class and are worthy of courtship, undivided attention, and marriage.
I believe you know this, but for whatever reason you are playing games.
As for sex tourism, I was suprised to learn that 3 out of 4 people that travel to Asian AND AFRICA go for sex tourism. To be honest I am torn on the issue. In my HIV/AIDS class I learned that most sex workers (even the ones that live outside of the US) are NOT forced into prostitution. Many of them feel working as a prostitute is worth it, they would rather work the streets than work in the factory line. If an adult makes the decision to do that then I dont have any right to complain or judge them. However, there are a lot of men the travel oversees to places like Thailand to have sex with minors and children as young as 3. Stuff like that bothers the hell out of me.
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Y “Hypersexual sluts are not seen as feminine. They are good for having sex and playing around ….”
whew, Y, Im getting all hot under the collar here….
all this talk about “hypersexual sluts”, is just turning me on …..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.(just kidding)
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@ Lynette:
“I’m beginning to think that people must equate Black with being unattractive. The woman is not the least bit ambiguous. Does she appear ambiguous because she happens to be attractive?”
As someone who finds black women as beautiful as anyone else, I have to strongly disgree with you on this point.
Perhaps in your context, the pictured woman is unambiguously black. And sure, place her around black people and she will be seen as black.
But if she was in Thailand, Indonesia, or the Cook Islands, she could easily blend in as a local.
“Black” in the US context covers a diverse range of appearances. Likewise, categories like “Asian” or “Latino” are extremely broad.
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ES
No offense but this woman does not look Thai.
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@ Leaveumthinking:
Not like most Thais, granted. But Thais, like other SE Asians, don’t all look the same. I’ve seen Thais, Cambodians, Burmese and Indonesians who look like that.
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I think that she is gorgeous. I’m a Black Male. Aries.
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Black women. Especially Dark ones. Stop buying into the hype that black men don’t find you attractive, and only White males can see your real beauty.
It’s garbage. Jeez.
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I know and agree that Asians do not all look the same. And yes some Thais do have broad features and darker skin but this woman looks at least part if not all African to me.
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Black women. Especially Dark ones. Stop buying into the hype that black men don’t find you attractive, and only White males can see your real beauty.
Some black men have been very vocal about not finding darker skin women as attractive as other women. I myself have never had a problem attracting men however Im not blind to what goes on around me. All over the internet men including black ones are flat out bashing black women especially the dark ones. I agree with you about white men. The majority do not find even the most beautiful black woman as attractive as an average looking non black woman.
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@ Leaveumthinking:
I do agree, she looks more black than anything else.
Terms like “black” and “Asian” cover such a broad range of looks that you get this kind of debate. I’ve heard of Filipinos who think Prince is one of them. Guys like Pharrell Williams or John Legend would blend in quite easily in Indonesia. (As far as I know, all three are purely African-American.) If I saw Rosario Dawson walking down my street, I’d probably think she was from India.
My Chinese friend, who is tanned and shaven headed with a goatee, visited LA recently, and everyone was convinced he was Mexican. Some guy even asked him where to get a good taco.
Me, I look real ambiguous. If you’re interested, here are some of the famous people that I get told I look like (rightly or wrongly):
http://eurasian-sensation.blogspot.com/2010/02/facebook-doppelgangers.html
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Thad, your naivety (or nastiness) amazes me here. Don’t tell me you didn’t know what would people think about your comment. Don’t tell me you didn’t know what kind of poster Abagond was- don’t tell me you didn’t know he’d never post an image of a transsexual to fool us.
Why shouldn’t Abagond post a photo of an exceptionally good-looking transvesite and see how males react? You lost me there, Mira. Like another person posting above, that was one of my thoughts: “Is this a trick question?”
But mainly, it’s her make-up use that got to me. I think that if this photo had been posted in the original form (i.e. no wierd filter, which is also a common resource, on-line, for transvestites who want to mask things further) or in a different context, I’d probably have thought “Ho hum, another plastic model type being held up as the epitome of beauty”.
But the filter and invitation to image ourselves in some sort of social relation with that woman made me react exactly as I would have reacted to any woman wearing that much make up in, say, a bar, café or nightclub here in Rio. I’d do a double take and say “Whoah. Is she for real?”
That’s the unvarnished truth, Mira, and I’m sorry if it’s not how you’d react over in Belgrade.
It’s also funny that you’re accusing me of being “too academic” when the reaction in this case was simply a knee-jerk emotional one. If I’d stopped to consider it “academically”, I’d probably have come to the conclusion that “Nah, Abagond wouldn’t do that. The dude’s way too into traditional heterosexuality and phallocentrism to intentionally confuse things.”
But I didn’t, Mira, precisely BECCAUSE I provided an unfiltered, non-academic reaction.
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Coudnt get to the inlaws, Thad , but, just an opinion here, you got into this by being your flipant self.
Oh dear. Am I flippant or an over-analytical academic?
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You did the same to me when you said that condomble in Rio was a surviving because of the gay presence (using a flipant term I cant remember now) , implying it was a gay thing when you know that the black woman is a key part of it.
Let’s be truthful here, B.R.: I said it was surviving in Rio because of the gays, which is quite true. You then took this to mean that there were no black women involved, which is something I neither said nor implied. Both statements are of course true: there are black women in it and they are important and if it weren’t for the gays here in Rio, those black women would be dancing in front of almost empty terreiros.
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Hathor sez:
Another example would be your response to Abagond. You can not be straight forward and answer his question, you have to parse it first.
Well, because there have been huge changes in these concepts over the last 50 years. I mean immense. 50 years ago, you were a pedophile and a pervert if you were gay. Now, gays can marry (at least here in brazil). Pretty big change and it’s an enormous topic to begin with.
What difference, if any, is there between prostitution, marriage and rape?
He ask the question in the present tense, why is it that you can not answer it in the present tense. You want to change the context to get precision? No, it is so that you can frame the argument to be consistent with your interpretation that only fits in the context you choose.
Actually, I’m trying to be respectful. I’d like to treat the question with due seriousness because it’s a very, very good question.
Waiting for classe to start yesterday, I jotted a response, parsed it and edited it to the bone and STILL could only get it down to around 1000 words. And that was dealing with the concepts as they’ve traditionally been seen in the west. Looking at how they’ve changed over the last 50 years would probably require another 500 words.
So do you REALLY want this here, Hathor? I’m happy to post it, but I’m already being accused of commenting too much, so…
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Lynn sez:
[great comments in general]
It should also be pointed out that these identities are in very rapid flux. Not a year goes by here in Brazil without a new identity being articulated or an old one reformatted.
In my case, I’m using the terms as they appear “on the ground” in the Rio zona, which is different from as they appear to leaders of the GBLT etc. movement, who frequently declare this or that term to be politically (in)correct.
“Travesti” is a term used by people who immitate female gender (not just clothing – the whole works) to sell sex.
“Drag” is what people do when they put on a show mocking gender (male or female) by overtly and exageratedly performing it.
“Transgênero” is someone who lives a life as the opposite gender from that which one would presume they’d be, going by birth genitals alone.
“Transsexual” is post op.
So given this, Roperta Close was a travesti who sometimes did drag and then became transgender and finally moved over to transsexual.
The problem with the American terms is that in Brazil, “transvestite” and “transgender” shift back and forth quite alot. A Brazilian transvestite rarely goes completely back into “male” (even gay male), but will also make a distinction between her normal appearance and “dressing for battle”. Plus, she’ll insist on using feminine pro-nouns to describe herself, even when she might be running two days of beard growth. In fact, gays in Brazil ofetn do the same.
So that’s why I prefer the native terms rather than the movement ones.
At any rate, all I meant to do by bringing drag queens into the thread was to explain why “transvestite” might be associated in people’s minds with “mannish,” since there’s a form of cross dressing that’s both iconic feminine and frankly male (and quite deliberately both).
We’re in agreement there. The woman here is obviously not “manly” and there’s no reason to presume that a transvestite/transgendered would be. “Drag”, however, NEEDS to be manly for it to work.
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@ ES
I understand what you are saying and I agree. I think I read somewhere that Pharell and John Legend were both part Asian. Never really knew about Prince I always he was black and white.
My Chinese friend, who is tanned and shaven headed with a goatee, visited LA recently, and everyone was convinced he was Mexican.
The same thing happens to my boyfriend his mother is Thai his father is half Native American and half black. He has been mistaken for Mexican quite a few times.
Me, I look real ambiguous. If you’re interested, here are some of the famous people that I get told I look like (rightly or wrongly):
Thanks for the link. Yes you do have a ambiguous look and youre very handsome too.
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I tried to read all the comments but there were just too many. I did read the comments where people were debating about this woman’s gender. Amazing! This black woman looks nothing at all like a man. Okay, she has alot of makeup on. So what! Someone mentioned earlier that the look she had is what the photographer was going for. There are probably many models who have on heavy makeup during a photo shooting. When people are on television, they have on lot of makeup. So what is the big deal. I think it is insulting to mention that she looks like a man. I mean here is a perfectly feminine looking women with no mannish features. I don’t think the comment was innocent at all. I have heard people say that black women look mannish even when they don’t. It was a cheap shot. Period!
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Peanut sez:
Thaddeus…are you kidding me?? In this coutry marriage affords rights to both people, community property rights, citizenship rights, financial rights, insurance rights….when you go and sex someone and pay them barely anything and then go back to your own country that is FAR more exploitive.
Peanut, as an American who has married two Brazilian women in my life and sheperded one through the green-card/citizenship process, I can say with some degree of authority that things are far more complicated than that.
When you marry a foreigner, your spouse doesn’t get all those rights, at least not automatically. It takes years of work to acquire most of them. During that time, the foreign spouse is JUST as vulnerable as any old boytoy would be.
Spouses also don’t make ANYTHING at all. They get paid nothing. A foreign spouse, in the U.S., is pretty much at the mercy of their partner. It takes 3-5 years for that green card to become permanent. At any point in that period, divorce means loss of residency and, ultimately, deportation back to your country of residence. And good luck trying to fight for any divorce bennies from overseas. That’s not going to happen unless you are independently wealthy.
By contrast, a typical prostitute working the sexual tourism market in Copacabana makes about 100-300 dollars per trick – up to the equivalent of a Brazilian monthly minimum wage. Many of these women are making much more cash than I do as a university professor. It is thus very hard for me to see them as “making barely anything”. They are certainly getting more economic mileage out of their trade than many wives do. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that some of these “poor exploited third world whores” make more money than you do.
In McMillan’s case, the guy was savvy enough to wait until he GOT residency rights under his belt before making his move. But he didn’t get those from marriage alone, Peanut: he had to go fight the Homeland Security people for them. They do not come automatically.
I’m guessing that McMillan is a pretty cool person to be married to, all things considered, but think about the situation of an abusive spouse, which many of our female informants have encountered. A foreign woman married to a guy who beats her is pretty much his slave. She isn’t going to get her green card ratified without his active aid, even if she knows English (which she probably doesn’t). That’ll take 3-5 years, in the best of cases, so she’ll be literally taking it on the chin during those years while hoping “dear hubby” doesn’t get cold feet and toss the proceedings out the window.
No, Peanut, let’s be prefectly clear on this: marriage definitely does not automatically protect a foreign spouses’ rights. Not in the U.S. nor in Brazil. In fact, it can lead to some horribly exploitative situations .
also in this country and most european countries, marriage implies consent, you sign a paper stating that your WILLING and legally commiting yourself to this person…
Now this is a good point: I think it would be a great thing if prostitutes could make legally binding contracts with clients. You’re right to point out that having that paper is indeed a weapon. You’re wrong to assume that prostitutes can’t have the same: they can’t because society doesn’t let them, not because it can’t be done. And you’re also wrong to assume that a marriage certificate is a powerful tool for a foreign spouse. On it’s own, it unfortunately really isn’t.
Peanut, while you scream at me about “how dare I talk about third world prostitution”, please remember that I live in the so-called “third world” and do work for our local prostitute’s union. I’m also pretty heavily into studying sexual tourism, trafficking of women and immigration in general. I’m thus willing to bet I have a much more informed opinion about what does and does not go on when men come down here to get married or pay for sex.
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Y sez:
As for sex tourism, I was suprised to learn that 3 out of 4 people that travel to Asian AND AFRICA go for sex tourism.
Y, take that stat with a huge grain of salt. There is no way in hell that we can produce a number like that as people do not go overseas for one reason alone, nor do they typically tell others “Yes, I am a sexual tourist!” So somewhere out there in the production line of that stat, someone is making some huge and probably very problematic presumptions.
However, there are a lot of men the travel oversees to places like Thailand to have sex with minors and children as young as 3.
I would doubt this, too. It gets said about Brazil alot, as well, but research shows it to be problematic. The national Brazilian child abuse hotline has very, very few denunciations of child sexual abuse undertaken by foreigners. Furthermore, denunciations of abuse by religious figures clocks in at 6-1 over tourists of all kinds, foreign and national.
When we do field work, we see very, very few minors. Those out there are typically in the 15-17 bracket and they are generally maintained at the margin of the zona. They aren’t in the clubs or restaurants. In close to 8 years observing sex work in Copa, I have only seen children soliciting sex on the streets on three occasions. On all three occasions, the waiters, doormen and even tourists were shoeing them away. On two occasions, the cops were immediately called.
Child sexual abuse occurs THROUGHOUT society, in the church and in the zona. There’s no evidence it’s worse in the zona and even circumstantial evidence that it is not worse there.
I’d thus very much doubt pop media sources on this point. Typically, they play to shock and panic and nothing is more shocking than the specter of children selling sex.
I can’t say about Thailand, but I CAN say that the reports you’re hearing coming from Brazil are GREATLY exagerated. This leads me to doubt that they are accurate elsewhere.
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Jeri sez:
I tried to read all the comments but there were just too many. I did read the comments where people were debating about this woman’s gender. Amazing! This black woman looks nothing at all like a man.
Sigh.
I live in a place where many, many tranvestites do not look like men. If you presume that “transvestite = mannish” that’s your prejudice and your look out, not mine.
AFAIK, there’s not a SINGLE person above claiming she looks “mannish”.
Not one. Anywhere.
So the problem, again, isn’t my racism, Jeri: it’s certain peoples’ prejudices over what transgendered, transvestite and transsxual people “must” look like.
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Joe Clyde says,
Black women. Especially Dark ones. Stop buying into the hype that black men don’t find you attractive, and only White males can see your real beauty.
It’s garbage. Jeez.
Leaveumthinking says,
Some black men have been very vocal about not finding darker skin women as attractive as other women. I myself have never had a problem attracting men however Im not blind to what goes on around me. All over the internet men including black ones are flat out bashing black women especially the dark ones. I agree with you about white men. The majority do not find even the most beautiful black woman as attractive as an average looking non black woman.
laromana says,
Leaveumthinking thanks for clearly stating these two FACTS about how MANY American BM/American men of ALL RACES are TRASHING BW (especially DARK BW) and how MOST American WM don’t find even the most beautiful BW as attractive as an average looking NON-BW. My long term life experiences have definitely shown these FACTS to be TRUE.
Contrary to what SOME may “think” it is true that, REGARDLESS of how positvely BW (and PRO BW supporters) view themselves, there are MANY American BM/NON-BM ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS who go out of their way to TRASH the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.
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laromana
Speak it like it is! Yeah, I have tried to have a positive attitude about men whether they are black or white. But the more I spend time on the internet, the more I become concerned. It seems as if many men regardless of race are determined to disrespect black women no matter what. Like I mentioned earlier in my comment, the reaction to the black woman in that photo was ridiculous. Here is a perfectly beautiful black women with feminine features and people have the nerve to say she could be a man! Incredible! No, I don’t think all men have anti-black women attitudes but it seems that alot of them do. Sisters, please keep your head up. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad. It is usually people who are insecure with themselves who feel the need to put others down.
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I don’t get the point of this. it seems there are relatively similar results for all the races of men, so most men just like an attractive woman regardless of race. sorry despite those poll results I don’t really think that is true. How lovely if it were though.
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Thanks, Jeri.
Hopefully, things will improve for BW in the future.
One thing that may help to do this is having BW have more control over how our image is presented in the American media world. Then we may be able to DESTROY the ANTI-BW images that help TRASH the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.
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“Speak it like it is! Yeah, I have tried to have a positive attitude about men whether they are black or white. But the more I spend time on the internet, the more I become concerned. It seems as if many men regardless of race are determined to disrespect black women no matter what.”
men in general disrespect bw, we just need to learn not to let it get to us
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“I just don’t see any other race but Black when looking at this woman. She is an attractive Black woman. Many Black women have her features. However, I don’t doubt that you have seen women of different ethnicities who resemble her.”
yeah, i don’t get it…if that’s not a black woman, then what is? why everytime a woman is attractive, she’s racially ambiguous or she’s a tranny??? I don’t get it…this thread just demonstrates what some people think on a subconscious level about bw
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@ Lynette:
I just thought it important to point that out, because to see her as possibly mixed or non-black is not an indictment on the beauty of black women.
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You evil racist f@#$, ES. How dare you have a different opinion.
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*sigh*
@ Peanut:
I thought I straightened this out earlier, but to repeat:
While this woman is most likely black, she has an interesting look because she could possibly be something else. I’ve worked with a lot of Pacific Islanders, Cambodians and Burmese, and have seen some who look like her. I myself am part-Indonesian, and I have relatives who look like her.
Some people here, I’m assuming, spend most of their time around African-Americans, so that is their frame of reference. My frame of reference includes a lot of time spent in SE Asia, and around SE Asian and Polynesian people. Within those populations, there is tremendous diversity, just as there is in the black community. I made reference to black people like Pharrell and John Legend because a lot of Asian people wonder if they are part Asian (as far as I know they are not) – just as many people have asked me if I’m part black (I’m not).
In defence of Thaddeus’s comments about the woman possibly being transgender, he only said so because through his frame of reference (living in Brazil and studying sex workers), heavy makeup is often a sign of being a tranny. Granted, I think Thad was being a too stubborn about defending his narrow point of view. But a lot of people here took the comment as implying she looked like a man, which I do not believe was his intention at all.
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wow. this post went from would a man date this woman to could it be transgender or she has too much makeup? my question is: who gives a damn?? this woman is not a man and because a certain someone had to point that out now this post is wondering if she’s a woman. i would say the woman does not have that much makeup on and is no man. i mean if you have nothing else but say she’s this or that, then why come here? it’s starting nothing but drama and it should be focus on her beauty, not if she’s a man.
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I would like to correct a statement I made earlier. I did read on a website that Pharell and John Legend were part Asian but that was incorrect. This website (if correct) says they are both black and Prince is black also.
http://www.nndb.com/people/066/000079826/
http://www.nndb.com/people/273/000092994/
http://www.nndb.com/people/836/000023767/
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Abagond, I have to say that I was only able to get halfway through the comments on this topic and noticed that Thaddeus posted so many comments that he seemed to take over the topic and page. I am not one for limiting what people write, but dear g*d, can we get him to limit it to 2 posts on each thread, especially since his posts seem to be quite long. Also, it seemed like he hijacked the thread, too. It went from doyou think tht she is attractive to what brazilian do you find attractive. Perhaps to appease him, you could post something along those lines? I really like reading your posts and the comments they garner, but posts by people like this take the wind out of one’s sails, you know? Just my thoughts and opinions…
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I’ll agree that this topic got hijacked. That wasn’t my intent and I’m sorry for contributing to it.
Really, truly, my original comment was not meant to stir up things like this. I expected that Abagond would say “no” or “don’t assume anything either way” and that would be that. Really. If I’ve commented way more than usual here, it’s because I felt attacked and felt that my intentions were being completely misread. I’ve also felt that some folks were demonstrating some pretty nasty stereotypes regarding gender in general.
It then got into a sort of interesting discussion on beauty and transvestitism and the like. Seems to me, in fact, that said discussion ended up being more fertile than the poll results.
When three persons charge at you and another two or three are openly debating with you, it’s difficult not respond.
But yeah, I’ve written an awful lot here and appologize for that.
In any case, my enforced homestay is done, so I very much doubt I’ll be posting here much in upcoming days.
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Leaveumthinking said:
“. All over the internet men including black ones are flat out bashing black women especially the dark ones. “
Can you list some websites like that? (Other than White Goddess, which I already know about). Thanks.
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Eurasian Sensation,
“While this woman is most likely black, she has an interesting look because she could possibly be something else. I’ve worked with a lot of Pacific Islanders, Cambodians and Burmese, and have seen some who look like her.”
I think this woman looks of African descent. I know South Asians can resemble blacks in some aspects but I’m pretty good at spotting the differences. Especially when you look at the photo the portrait in this post is based on: no doubt that this woman is anything but black.
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Thad:
1. Apology accepted. Well, kind of: I would prefer people to write more rather than less.
2. I would love to have your answer to my question about rape, prostitution and marriage, most especially the way it has changed over the past 50 years. If you can break it up into 500-word pieces (or allow me to do it) then I can guest-post it. You can either email me or post it here. Rape and history, especially, is something that keeps coming up on this blog.
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abagond
Leaveumthinking said:
“. All over the internet men including black ones are flat out bashing black women especially the dark ones. “
Can you list some websites like that? (Other than White Goddess, which I already know about). Thanks.
Abagond I was not referring to an actual website that is dedicated to downing black women like (White Goddess) but if you google topics about black women concerning looks, dating, the dark skin/light skin thing, or anything about why black men date white women you’ll read plenty of negative comments mostly targeting darker skin black women. Its the same thing on youtube.
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True, it does seem that black women’s femininity is constantly questioned, along with Asian men’s masculinity. Femininity/masculinity of white people is questioned only on individual basis (does (s)he look feminine/masculine), but never as a whole.
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but if you google topics about black women
I’ve seen this kind of thing sometimes as trolling comments on black women’s blogs.
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Mira
Well I think a good portion of white men are pretty hairy, so it would be kind of hard to call them feminine based on looks alone. Masculinity and femininity are world wide concepts not just white concepts, Asian women have been seen as very feminine even before white/Asian relations. Ancient Taoist text talk about femininity long before white people came into the picture, you know the whole ying and yang thing. The feminine side was gentle and graceful and the masculine side was powerful and strong.
I think Asian men are looked at as feminine by Americans because compared to black or white men they are slightly more feminine in appearance, less body/facial hair and smaller stature on average. And the reverse is true with black women they are seen as more muscular and have bigger facial features, bigger lips, and nose and so forth, which is not considered feminine by a large portion of the globe not just white people.
Not that I agree with this, but it seems to be a consensus among many ethnic groups that smaller equals feminine larger equals masculine.
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“I think Asian men are looked at as feminine by Americans”
Should read
I think Asian men are looked at as feminine by white and black Americans.
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Ó Dochartaigh says,
Asian women have been seen as very feminine even before white/Asian relations.
And the reverse is true with black women they are seen as more muscular and have bigger facial features, bigger lips, and nose and so forth, which is not considered feminine by a large portion of the globe not just white people.
laromana says,
These are STEREOTYPES applied to AW and to BW. The fact that they are “globally accepted” doesn’t change that.
Anyone who has observed ACTUAL BW and isn’t CONTROLLED by ANTI-BW RACISM, LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES, can see that they are just as FEMININE as NON-BW.
Also, BW tend to have softer, rounder features (ie. jaw lines, neck lines, curvier body types) that are OBVIOUSLY FEMININE not MASCULINE as compared to SOME NON-BW who have MASCULINE angular jaw lines and boyish figures.
It’ telling that NON-BW who posess these MASCULINE features are still “considered feminine” .
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Im so with you about black women being feminine, Laromana ( not saying you dont think so, O).
I am flabergasted that any of you feel here , because of things youve heard in the media etc, that black women are some how looked on as less feminine.
Black women are all female to me, not only in apearance but in personality. Like flirting and stuff like that…or holding her in my arms and comforting her when she is crying …id love to say dancing , but, I dont want to make that a stereo type, so Ill say, the black women Ive danced with , projected an incredible femininity and sensuality.
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B.R.,
Thanks for your PRO-BW stance.
We need MORE men of ALL RACES to reaffirm that ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, AND STEREOTYPES (ie. “black women are seen as more muscular and have bigger facial features, bigger lips, and nose and so forth, which is not considered feminine”) are RACIST and UNTRUE.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
“Well I think a good portion of white men are pretty hairy, so it would be kind of hard to call them feminine based on looks alone.”
Plenty of women have hair, thick hair even. Humans are a hairy species.
Also white men are fair-skinned and fair-haired, which could be considered “feminine” depending on your source. So I disagree that they couldn’t be called feminine on looks alone.
“Masculinity and femininity are world wide concepts not just white concepts”
Indeed they are, but these ideas are variable depending on culture, race, and ethnicity
“Asian women have been seen as very feminine even before white/Asian relations.”
Sources please. AFAIK, the only people considering Asian women more feminine than other women before the 1800s were Asian people.
“I think Asian men are looked at as feminine by Americans because compared to black or white men they are slightly more feminine in appearance, less body/facial hair and smaller stature on average.”
As I said above, white men could easily be put into the “more” feminine category. The only reason why they are not and Asian men are has everything to do with racism.
“And the reverse is true with black women they are seen as more muscular and have bigger facial features, bigger lips, and nose and so forth, which is not considered feminine by a large portion of the globe not just white people.”
Plenty of Asian women have rounder and broader features yet they are considered feminine in American culture. So that reason just does not wash. Broad features are not masculine. Do you think that men in Africa and Asia are thinking about their fellow women “Well, there’s a man!” No, masculine and feminine features are largely culturally defined.
Angularity is associated with masculinity, not roundness. A case can be (and has been) made for white women being more masculine due to the harsh angularity of their features. To repeat, broad features are not masculine. Would you call this woman masculine?
How about this one?
“Not that I agree with this, but it seems to be a consensus among many ethnic groups that smaller equals feminine larger equals masculine.”
…Nice try. “Well here’s what other people think, not me!”
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Laromna
“These are STEREOTYPES applied to AW and to BW. The fact that they are “globally accepted” doesn’t change that.”
Of course they are stereotypes, that was my point. Stereotypes are what started the concepts of Masculinity and Femininity. That and what people are attracted to.
I noticed you didn’t say anything about the Asian men, do you think that a 5’6 almost hairless Asian man with petite body features is as masculine as say Brad Pitt or Labron James? I think most American women would say no. Does that make them wrong for stereotyping masculinity? I don’t think so, they like the stereotypical masculine man. Not very many women will date a man that is smaller than her.
So I’m sure you, (correct me if I am wrong) like many other women want a man bigger stronger and more masculine than you, but I am not offended by this because I am only 5’8 and 150 pounds. I don’t blame women when they look at me and think he is too short, or that they are stereotyping masculinity.
So you can’t convince a man that black women are not masculine, if he truly thinks most of them are. Just like you can’t convince a women to date someone smaller than her if she truly thinks they are too feminine.
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ERE,
I agree. Oddly, the vast majority of people I’ve seen with broad noses are Asian, while most Black people I know have mixed roundish-pointy noses.
A lot of White girls seem uncomfortable having that bump on their noses and label it unattractive, but none of them ever call it a “White” feature.
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Natasha
“Sources please. AFAIK, the only people considering Asian women more feminine than other women before the 1800s were Asian people.”
That was my point, Asian people saw small features as more feminine, it was one of the reasons why Chinese bound there feet, the emperor at the time liked little feet and thought it was erotic.
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/OddPics/Bound.html
And I don’t disagree that white women can be very masculine as well
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Natasha
“Sources please. AFAIK, the only people considering Asian women more feminine than other women before the 1800s were Asian people.”
That was my point Asian people saw small features as more desirable, like Chinese foot binding. At the time the Emperor liked small feet and thought they were “erotic.”
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/OddPics/Bound.html
I don’t disagree that white women can look masculine as well.
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Well I think a good portion of white men are pretty hairy, so it would be kind of hard to call them feminine based on looks alone.
Let’s face it: whites are hairy. I am not saying others are not, but (some) whites tend to be hairy. And guess what- it is true for their females!
And the reverse is true with black women they are seen as more muscular and have bigger facial features, bigger lips, and nose and so forth, which is not considered feminine by a large portion of the globe not just white people.
Ok, so white women might have smaller noses and lips, which is, you say, considered more feminine. But what about their bodies? White women tend to be more “angular” in terms of figure. Narrow hips, small butts, larger waist to hip ratio. They don’t look like men, but their figures are often less feminine than black women’s figures. So how come black women aren’t considered the most feminine?!?
Black women have the most feminine figures. Going with this logic, they should be considered the most feminine!
Asian women have been seen as very feminine even before white/Asian relations.
Well, of course a group will talk about femininity and beauty of their own women. And masculinity of their own men. It goes with gender relations within a group and has nothing to do with race.
I think Asian men are looked at as feminine by Americans because compared to black or white men they are slightly more feminine in appearance, less body/facial hair and smaller stature on average.
Wait, wait… WHAT are you talking about? Even if I buy “smaller stature” thing, I still don’t get it. Asian men feminine?!? By what standards? Just because they are not hairy? It makes NO sense.
To be honest I consider hairy men a turn off. (I love guys with nice hair- but on their heads, lol) Not that I like the trend of men waxing their chests. If you’re a hairy guy, you are a hairy guy, nothing to be ashamed of.
I don’t know about black men, but I do believe they tend to be less hairy than the whites (it makes evolutionary sense if you think about the climate). So how come a) white men are not considered the “most masculine” (as: oversexed) and b) closest to the animals (being hairy and all)?
Now, as much as I believe Natasha’s words (“Well here’s what other people think, not me!”), I must add that’s not what I think. I don’t see white men as ugly, hairy beasts. And no, I don’t think thin women with high waist to hip ratio are not feminine.
I’m just saying it’s a cultural thing that doesn’t make sense realistically- it all depends on cultural context. You can take ANY feature and make it feminine/masculine in order to justify your prejudice. It still doesn’t make it true.
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@ERE:
It’s interesting you mentioned this. As you know I’m Asian (Filipino), and I’ve had a bit of a complex with my eyes when I was younger. I was racially taunted mostly for my eyes as well as my full lips. I mentioned in one of abagond’s posts that a girl I knew in hs saw me applying lipstick in front of a mirror and she commented I had the n-word lips. I received a whole week of detention for a week because I spit in her face.
Now my sister told me the stories of what happened to her when she was a child at her school. She said some classmates made fun of her nose calling her black nose. I could relate to my sister and I remember telling her nose was beautiful. Well, this young girl became quite the looker as an adult.
My point is, certain people will do their utmost in disparaging others by referring to black women’s features. It’s unacceptable.
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Mira
“I’m just saying it’s a cultural thing that doesn’t make sense realistically- it all depends on cultural context. You can take ANY feature and make it feminine/masculine in order to justify your prejudice. It still doesn’t make it true.”
I agree I find Rosario Dawson very attractive, but I have had more than one guy friend tell me she is too manish. So it is all preference.We were talking about stereotypes so I was naming some and the possible reasons why they are a stereotype.
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Ó Dochartaigh
I noticed you didn’t say anything about the Asian men, do you think that a 5’6 almost hairless Asian man with petite body features is as masculine as say Brad Pitt or Labron James?
I am not laromana, but I must admit I never found Brad Pitt to be particularly masculine. That possibly goes with my preference, or should I say, prejudice, about blond men (not my type). Also, Brad has a face of a boy. That is not bad in MY book, but many women prefer men with more masculine face.
Now, I must admit I’m a shallow %#$%# and I always preferred tall men (as in: taller than, say, 5’10”) so I must admit 5’6” doesn’t sound amazing. But it has nothing to do with race.
Jasmin
A lot of White girls seem uncomfortable having that bump on their noses and label it unattractive, but none of them ever call it a “White” feature.
What do you mean by “bump”? Shape of nostrils or bump on the nose? Many white people have that bump on their nose, and you could even say it’s a white people’s thing.
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Natasha
“Sources please. AFAIK, the only people considering Asian women more feminine than other women before the 1800s were Asian people.”
That was my point, Asian people found smaller features attractive, or at least the Chinese did, it is one of the reasons for foot binding. The emperor of that time found small feet “erotic.” I have tried to post a link twice, but my comments won’t show up for some reason.
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@ Ó Dochartaigh
I have to agree here. If a man TRULY thinks that black women are masculine and he doesnt like us he should be left alone, period. I dont think black women should try to convince men that dont find us attractive to want us. It isnt our loss, its theirs. Life is TOO SHORT to piss and shit about people that dont value black beauty.
If men, regardless of race, find black women unappealing WHOLESALE regardless of diverse skin-tones and facial features its not our fault. I wish black women would stop trying to explain black beauty and make others appreciate it.
Would it be awesome if black women were seen as feminine like other non-black women? OF course! But black women need to stop stressing out over people that dont want us. I do think we should fight the negative stereotypes by boycotting films that have men in drag playing black women (very damaging that is were the black women=manly comes from IMHO). If black women carry themselves in a dignified manner and are still treated less than by people the problem is not with us it is with them.
I dont think black women that are generally attractive(nice, feminine, in shape, smart) should worry about what men think of her blackness. There is nothing she can do about that and she should not have to change to fit into what narrow-minded men feel is attractive. If she needs to try twice as hard to get the same attention from a man as her non-black counterpart she needs to avoid men with that mentality.
The average black woman cannot change the world, but they can change the way they think about themselves and their outlook. Black women need to stop dwelling on the people that think we look like men/apes/whatever and focus on self improvement and men that like the way we look naturally.
It is completely unnecessary to focus on people that will never want you.
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Natasha
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/OddPics/Bound.html
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I agree I find Rosario Dawson very attractive, but I have had more than one guy friend tell me she is too manish. So it is all preference.We were talking about stereotypes so I was naming some and the possible reasons why they are a stereotype.
No, you were trying to find logical, or, should I say, biological reasons behind stereotypes. I’m trying to point out it’s a cultural thing. ANY feature can be seen as masculine or feminine if you (general you) like. I already named several reasons why white women can be seen as the least feminine and black women the most feminine. There’s no logical reason why things can’t be seen as such. It’s the cultural (racist) thing to see white women as more feminine than black women. It is not a fact.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
“That was my point, Asian people found smaller features attractive, or at least the Chinese did, it is one of the reasons for foot binding. “
Well, thanks for stating the obvious. X people find X women attractive; I think we all know that any group of people will find others in their group attractive… What does this have to do with the American stereotype of Asian woman and femininity?
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Mira
“I’m trying to point out it’s a cultural thing.”
I never said it wasn’t.
“It’s the cultural (racist) thing to see white women as more feminine than black women. It is not a fact.”
I never said it was a fact.
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@ERE:
I agree. The irony is, the features that were ridiculed when my sister and I were younger are now considered our best assets. Go figure.
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Mira,
“Wait, wait… WHAT are you talking about? Even if I buy “smaller stature” thing, I still don’t get it. Asian men feminine?!? By what standards? Just because they are not hairy? It makes NO sense.”
Exactly. I didn’t even know they were stereotyped as feminine until I began frequenting blogs and forums. To me they look as manly as any other group of men. I mean, what is so feminine about this man?
If I were single, and he was just another guy walking down the street, I’d definitely be checking him out.
“To be honest I consider hairy men a turn off.”
Same. And I know many women who think similarly. I really dislike excessive body hair on men; hairy chest, thick beards, etc. Nor do I think “darker” men are particularly more attractive. My ideals seem to flip the concepts of “what women find attractive in men” on its head.
“I am not laromana, but I must admit I never found Brad Pitt to be particularly masculine.”
Again, same. I don’t find him attractive, not one bit, and not my idea of masculine. I agree on the tall thing, though. I like tall men. I would say you have very similar tastes as I, except:
“That possibly goes with my preference, or should I say, prejudice, about blond men (not my type).”
My SO is dirty blond like Brad, so I have to disagree. Not that I have a particular preference for blond hair, but I don’t discriminate against blond men.
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Natasha
“What does this have to do with the American stereotype of Asian woman and femininity?”
Because white American men, just like Chinese men, tend to like petite features, and Asian women usually have them.
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“I’m trying to point out it’s a cultural thing.”
I never said it wasn’t.
“It’s the cultural (racist) thing to see white women as more feminine than black women. It is not a fact.”
I never said it was a fact.
True, but the way you talked about seemed like you’re trying to see the point of those people who claim that black women are not feminine and Asian men not masculine. While, in fact, the point is not about black women or Asian men, but about (racist) ways whites see non-white people.
I’m not trying to imply you are the one who thinks black women are not feminine. But the whole point is that feminine/masculine features are not absolutes: ANYTHING can be seen as masculine/feminine if that’s how your culture wants to see it. So instead of noting that Asian men are less hairy and black women have bigger lips, you should ask why the culture in question (white American culture) wants its people to see Asian men and black women in such light.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Because white American men, just like Chinese men, tend to like petite features, and Asian women usually have them.
Once again, Asian women do not have overall more petite features than other groups of women. If you think so, you need to go to an area heavily populated with Asians.
But here we reach the crux of the matter: white men. I’m sorry, but white ideals of femininity are not universal. You are taking what white men (read: you) consider feminine and applying these as global concepts of femininity. It just does not work like that.
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@Natasha W:
Yeah, what’s up with that? There are billions of Asians on this planet. There is quite the variety of looks among Asian women as well as Asian me.
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I meant Asian men.
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Natasha W
Exactly. I didn’t even know they were stereotyped as feminine until I began frequenting blogs and forums. To me they look as manly as any other group of men. I mean, what is so feminine about this man?
What is strange about “Asian men feminine” stereotype is that it goes against the other stereotype about Asian men, that is, a “kung fu/karate” martial artist stereotype. So how do they explain this contradiction, I wonder?
Same. And I know many women who think similarly. I really dislike excessive body hair on men; hairy chest, thick beards, etc.
True, true. Not to mention that, in many cases, excessive body hair goes with receding hairline (another generalization, I know, but I did notice that many men with hairy chests and thick beards start losing their hair at a young(er) age). But once again, if you are a hairy guy going bald, it’s better to be yourself than waxing/worrying about your hairline. Just a note! 😉
Again, same. I don’t find him attractive, not one bit, and not my idea of masculine. I agree on the tall thing, though. I like tall men. I would say you have very similar tastes as I, except:
I believe women – dare to say “most” (as in: almost all)- like tall men (with deep voices). That tends to be one of the rare universal things about physical preferences. I might be wrong here, though. Still, it has nothing to do with race. Nor being tall and having a deep voice goes together. There are many short men with deep voices, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Vedder
Still, general preference or not, it must be noted that liking tall men with deep voices is not a race specific preference.
My SO is dirty blond like Brad, so I have to disagree. Not that I have a particular preference for blond hair, but I don’t discriminate against blond men.
Well, true, this is my fault. I’m not saying blond men are not masculine. It’s just another stereotype (“dark & handsome”- what, if he’s not dark he can’t be handsome?) Guys with dirty blond hair can be very handsome and I don’t doubt your SO is good looking and masculine. I’m just saying this might be the prejudice I share and I’m not proud of it (not that I never dated a blond/blue eyed guy).
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Mira,
I’m talking about that bump many White people have on the bridge of their nose–it’s like a knot on a tree?
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OD,
I would add to what Natasha said that if you think White men like petite features, then you are contradicting what you said earlier about groups preferring the features of their own–most White women aren’t petite in body or facial features. It’s certainly not true of all White women, but I notice many my age (in college) tend to develop the so-called “undesirable traits” (wide hips, a “fleshy look”) earlier than women of other groups.
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Mira,
“What is strange about “Asian men feminine” stereotype is that it goes against the other stereotype about Asian men, that is, a “kung fu/karate” martial artist stereotype. So how do they explain this contradiction, I wonder?”
Me too. I would like to hear an explanation if anyone has one. Maybe that they make up for their lack of strength/masculinity by taking up martial arts?
“I believe women – dare to say “most” (as in: almost all)- like tall men (with deep voices).”
I think you may be right about the tall part. I don’t know about the voice. I like a normal pitch, not too deep, not too high. But I’m not particular about voices; they just have to be sexy.
“Guys with dirty blond hair can be very handsome and I don’t doubt your SO is good looking and masculine.”
I’ll make sure to tell him that. 🙂
“I’m just saying this might be the prejudice I share and I’m not proud of it (not that I never dated a blond/blue eyed guy).”
You prefer darker eyes too, right? Well semi-related story, I just found out my SO has blue eyes. This entire time I was thinking they were greenish. We got into a debate a few weeks ago about the color of his eyes and we had to call up his parents to settle it. Verdict: blue with green outline. I wonder if I have an unconscious bias against blue eyes and that’s why I never noticed all these years.
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Jasmin
“most White women aren’t petite in body or facial features.”
That is definitely true, but that is not usually the type in Miss America pageants, or fashion magazines. You know the “attractive” white women. (sarcasm) It seems like most white guys would die to get a chance with those type of women.
I personally prefer big hips (not disproportionately big), dark hair, and freckles.
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Me too. I would like to hear an explanation if anyone has one. Maybe that they make up for their lack of strength/masculinity by taking up martial arts?
True. This could be a good topic for discussion.
I think you may be right about the tall part. I don’t know about the voice. I like a normal pitch, not too deep, not too high. But I’m not particular about voices; they just have to be sexy.
Well, it’s assumed women don’t like men with squeaky voices, but they don’t usually expect Barry White type of voice either. Then again, the tallness thing seem to be universal. HOWEVER, we all know it’s “in” today for women to be tall (and wear high heels), so it’s not unusual today to see couples where woman is taller, or of the same height as a man.
You prefer darker eyes too, right?
Right. I think preference fro dark eyes is stronger than for dark hair, because, frankly, I like beautiful hair on men, of any colour. But there’s something irresistible about dark eyes, and sometimes I get angry because there seem to be many songs written about blue and green eyes but little about dark eyes. I believe they deserve more love, for being so beautiful.
Of course, nothing wrong with blue and green eyes. My mother’s eyes are green. I have a couple of cousins whose eyes are blue. I guess I just didn’t understand the whole craziness about blue eyes (especially dark hair/blue eyes combination, which is considered the most amazing for a guy- at least here).
Well semi-related story, I just found out my SO has blue eyes. This entire time I was thinking they were greenish. We got into a debate a few weeks ago about the color of his eyes and we had to call up his parents to settle it. Verdict: blue with green outline. I wonder if I have an unconscious bias against blue eyes and that’s why I never noticed all these years.
I think with light eyes (blue, green, grey), a lot of depends on the clothes and light. Also, blue-green (turquoise?) eyes are not that rare thing, I mean, some people have it and they are considered very attractive.
Maybe you do have an unconscious bias against blue eyes, and maybe it’s not because of them per se, but because of the whole “the most beautiful eye colour” stereotype?
Jasmin
I’m talking about that bump many White people have on the bridge of their nose–it’s like a knot on a tree?
Right. It does seem to be a white people’s thing. I’m not saying there aren’t non-white people with that bump, but it’s usually a white people’s feature. It can be annoying and frankly, it can make a nose not-attractive-by-today’s-standards.
I’m not saying it IS ugly- it can be charming, it can give “character” to the face, especially on men (make their face more “masculine” lol)- but it’s definitely a “white people’s thing” (not that any physical feature is race specific, but if we can say broad nose is black people’s feature, we can call this white people’s feature). The fact it isn’t generally considered a white people’s thing is because only a few things ever are considered “white people’s thing”, especially those that are not considered attractive. Because, you know, whites are individuals and all.
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Note: I don’t really mean Asian men make up for their lack of strength/masculinity by taking up martial arts, I was referring to the stereotype (the contradiction between two popular stereotypes about Asian men: being less masculine and being martial artists).
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I would love for someone to explain this to me…
When it comes to the masculine.feminine debates why is it that people love to focus on facial features??? I have noticed that the debate usually begins and ends with broad features. Im not trying to go after O Doch. personally but whenever non-black men get into this discussion they focus on black women’s lack of “petite” features.
Last time I checked femininity and female beauty were not all about facial structure. It has been noted my Mira that body shapes and softness of the body(plush bottoms and soft breasts) also play a role in femininity, yet people steer clear of mentioning it. If we looked at overall body shapes and softness we would see that black women (on average) have rounder hips and larger bottoms than other races of women. If I wanted to I could make the case that black women should be considered more feminine because of their body shape.
The point is femininity and beauty are relative. Of course there are traits that are universally attractive to all humans but the focus on petite features is something that always seemed odd to me. I get very suspicious of people that use petite features as the reason why black women are not seen as attractive or feminine. Again Im not try to attack Ó Dochartaigh personally but I am curious to know WHY so much emphasis is placed on facial features?
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Why are all of my comments going straight to moderation?
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Y, I think it might be the words you are using. Using the words mentioned on the commenting page (and words similar to them), get your comments sent to moderation.
Mira,
“Also, blue-green (turquoise?) eyes are not that rare thing, I mean, some people have it and they are considered very attractive.”
His eyes are not turquoise, although they appear to be from afar since the green outline blends with the blue.
“Maybe you do have an unconscious bias against blue eyes, and maybe it’s not because of them per se, but because of the whole “the most beautiful eye colour” stereotype?”
The interesting thing is I never even notice eye color (although I’ll notice everything else about a person’s face)… Except when the eyes are blue, although I clearly don’t all the time because I didn’t notice in this case.
I do think blue eyes are overhyped, but mainly amongst white people. My SO’s sister is fawned over due to her light blonde hair and blue eyes. And his grandmother who his sister takes after, was also highly sought after in her younger days. She dated one of the older men in the “Most Gorgeous Man in the World” poll, and she always talks about how he was head over heels for her.
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I don’t know, but I noticed the same thing with some of my posts on other subjects. No “forbidden” words or anything. It looks like Abagond’s comments policy became more strict, in a way I don’t understand.
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In my first post I used the word a.p.e and sh*t but that it.
In the second post I had no forbidden words…IDK maybe its because my IP addresses keep changing. I use public computers, my personal computer, my roommate’s computer, and I used a different computer when I was in California.
Maybe Im just confusing the system. LOL
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In my first post I used the word a.p.e and sh*t but that it.
In the second post I had no forbidden words…IDK maybe its because my IP addresses keep changing. I use public computers, my personal computer, my roommate’s computer, and I used a different computer when I was in California.
Maybe Im just confusing the system.
LOL
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I tend to notice eye colour on men, but not women. Well, sometimes I do.
Most of the people I know have brown eyes, which is considered a “boring” colour. I think blue and green eyes are over hyped among whites because they are rare even for whites, and look “exotic”. Anything labeled “exotic” gets attention. Blue and green eyes can be beautiful of course, but the fact they are rare don’t automatically make them more beautiful. If they are too light can look watery and they sometimes look “weird” (blank) depending on light, especially on photos. Not all, and not always, but I’m just saying there’s a minus side to that.
I do think blue eyes are overhyped, but mainly amongst white people. My SO’s sister is fawned over due to her light blonde hair and blue eyes. And his grandmother who his sister takes after, was also highly sought after in her younger days. She dated one of the older men in the “Most Gorgeous Man in the World” poll, and she always talks about how he was head over heels for her.
Wow, that’s interesting. True, blue eyed people often get attention because of their eye colour. I know my brother was very popular with girls because of his blue eyes (that’s what those girls were saying anyway).
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As far as the way western men look at Asian men, it usually has to do with size, westerners are hung up on size, tall, big muscles = manliness. The average Japanese man is shorter than 5’7, this is considered girlie, or wimpy, believe I know I’m only 5’8 and have heard it all before, also their lack of body hair.
As far as Martial Arts, the Japanese have a Martial Art called Jujustu it was actually created so a small man could defeat a large man with little effort. I think anybody that trains in a fighting style whether it is European Boxing or Kung Fu, automatically get bumped up to a more manly status regardless of size.
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Sorry, I meant to say “my cousin” (I don’t have any brothers or sisters). But in my country, we call our cousins brothers and sisters and we refer to them as such.
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As far as the way western men look at Asian men, it usually has to do with size, westerners are hung up on size, tall, big muscles = manliness. The average Japanese man is shorter than 5’7, this is considered girlie, or wimpy, believe I know I’m only 5’8 and have heard it all before, also their lack of body hair.
I am sorry if you were called “girlie or wimpy” because you’re not a tall guy. True, women often discriminate against short men. But like I already said, it’s not a racial thing. White and black men can be short too.
As far as Martial Arts, the Japanese have a Martial Art called Jujustu it was actually created so a small man could defeat a large man with little effort. I think anybody that trains in a fighting style whether it is European Boxing or Kung Fu, automatically get bumped up to a more manly status regardless of size.
I am sorry, but this make no sense. Are you trying to imply martial arts are invented so Asian men could fight whites (who are taller than them)?
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Mira,
“Most of the people I know have brown eyes, which is considered a “boring” colour. I think blue and green eyes are over hyped among whites because they are rare even for whites, and look “exotic”.
Hmmm, I guess it depends on which “whites” you are talking about. My SO’s family is of Scandinavian descent and they all have blue or green eyes. The only one in the family with brown eyes is me. 😉
“Wow, that’s interesting. True, blue eyed people often get attention because of their eye colour.”
I think it may also have to do with the pale hair as well. Nordic look.
Anyway, to take this back to the topic, I think the woman on this post has very beautiful eyes and her eye make-up accentuates them amazingly (referring to the original photo, not the one above). Definitely not boring.
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Mira
No not at all, Jujutsu was created by Samurai, to fight other Samurai. My point was Asian Martial Arts make you a bad a** regardless of size. That is why a lot men of all races like them.
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Mira
It has never bothered me what men have said about my height, I was always self conscious in high school around girls, but I think I made up for it by being a musician. 😉
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I’ve got blue eyes myself and I’ve noticed that girls do notice them alot. Do guys pay much attention to eye color, though? I don’t myself.
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Hmmm, I guess it depends on which “whites” you are talking about. My SO’s family is of Scandinavian descent and they all have blue or green eyes. The only one in the family with brown eyes is me.
True, true, it depends on the whites! But for some reason I thought blue eyes were not that popular in Scandinavia, because most of the people have them? I guess I was wrong.
True, the woman on this post has very beautiful eyes, and I do think the photo manipulation was unnecessary. The original photo was much better.
No not at all, Jujutsu was created by Samurai, to fight other Samurai.
Who were… Let me guess: Asian. My point is, martial arts were not created for fighting “bigger people of other races”. Still they are popular among people all over the world, so popular, in fact, that they make another stereotype about Asian men.
I was under the impression martial arts were popular because of their general “badassness”, NOT because they managed to make “fragile and feminine” Asian men look masculine. My point is, anyway you want to look at it, there’s nothing feminine about martial arts, and they are created and practiced by Asian men, so much that they are even part of the Asian men stereotype. My question is: if Asian men are soooo non-masculine, how come this stereotype exist?
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Ó Dochartaigh
It has never bothered me what men have said about my height, I was always self conscious in high school around girls, but I think I made up for it by being a musician.
Well, I didn’t mean on other men, I meant on what women think (because many of them prefer taller guys). Still, you’re right: if you’re a musician you don’t have to be tall to get girls and be considered attractive. 😀
FG
I’ve got blue eyes myself and I’ve noticed that girls do notice them alot. Do guys pay much attention to eye color, though? I don’t myself.
I assume you have dark hair and not pale skin? In that case, it’s a combination many (white) women find incredibly attractive. Many women notice guy’s eye colour. But it’s not like men don’t notice women’s eye colour. Some studies show it is especially true for blue eyed men: they often go with blue eyed women. Reason? To ensure their children would be blue eyed (and to make it easier to spot the infidelity, if a woman has dark eyed child).
(Crappy article? Of course. I was unaware of the fact blue eyed couple always have blue eyed children. In any case, I’m not a fan of this kind of popular articles. Still, I believe they did the study and it showed that (white) men, indeed notice female eye colour).
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Mira
I thought I answered that, it is because any man that knows how to fight, regardless of size gets bumped up to bad a**, at least among men.
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I was unaware of the fact blue eyed couple always have blue eyed children.
response: im’ not a geneticist but if i remember correctly you need 2 recessive blue eye genes for blue eyes and two blue eyed people= 4 recessive blue genes, no brown- eyed gene, so the kid will always have blue eyes.
B= brown
b= blue
bb= mom
bb= dad
bb= kid
if mom is Bb= brown eyes
dad is bb= blue eyes, then the kid has a 1/2 chance of having brown eyes, 1/2 chance of blue
if one parent in BB and other parent is bb, then the kid will have brown eyes…
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Apparently eye color inheritance is complicated, though. Two brown-eyed people can produce a blue-eyed kid or vice-versa, from what I hear.
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“I assume you have dark hair and not pale skin? In that case, it’s a combination many (white) women find incredibly attractive. Many women notice guy’s eye colour. But it’s not like men don’t notice women’s eye colour. Some studies show it is especially true for blue eyed men: they often go with blue eyed women. Reason? To ensure their children would be blue eyed (and to make it easier to spot the infidelity, if a woman has dark eyed child).”
These aren’t US studies, though, are they? We have alot of Germanic- and Scandinavian-types over here, so in many parts of the country blue eyes aren’t anything special for white people.
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here ya go: http://www.athro.com/evo/inherit.html
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Apparently eye color inheritance is complicated, though. Two brown-eyed people can produce a blue-eyed kid or vice-versa, from what I hear.
Two brown eyed people can produce a blue eyed kid. The blue cousin I was talking about, both of his parents are brown eyed and so is his sister.
But I am not sure if blue eyed couple can have a brown eyed kid. As far as those studies go, it’s impossible.
I think we need Natasha for more info here… 🙂
These aren’t US studies, though, are they? We have alot of Germanic- and Scandinavian-types over here, so in many parts of the country blue eyes aren’t anything special for white people.
I believe those were US studies (those about blue eyed men preferring blue eyed women). But like many popular psychology or popular biology studies and articles, they should not be taken for granted. I doubt they even mean something in scientific terms. I mentioned that because it mentions that men do pay attention on eye colour. Once again, it is probably individual.
But MY idea of blue eyes being popular among whites because they are rare was based on my experience (in my culture). It’s not that there aren’t blue eyed people here (about 1/4 of population I’d say), but blue eyes, and green eyes (even more rare- the rarest eye colour there is, I believe) are considered “special” and beautiful, as in: exotic a bit. On the other hand, blond hair is rare here and it’s considered attractive for women but not for men. Red hair is even rarer, and so are freckles (who are not considered attractive, especially for men). (Just trying to think of some “white” features that are rare here).
We have alot of Germanic- and Scandinavian-types over here, so in many parts of the country blue eyes aren’t anything special for white people.
If this is, indeed, true, then how come blue eyes are praised all over the place (media I mean). There are so many blue and green eyed actors and actresses. Is blue really the most frequent eye colour for white Americans??? Or is it that blue eyes are considered more attractive and that’s why many media people are chosen for their attractive features? Also, you said yourself, FG, girls notice your eye colour (in a positive sense I assume).
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The blue cousin I was talking about, both of his parents are brown eyed and so is his sister.
yes brown eyed people can produce blue eyes because they can still have the recessiev blue gene, all you need is one brown-eyed gene to get a brown eye, but u can still have the recessiev blue gene, so its like rolling the die when you have a kid…they can get brown or blue even if u and hubby have brown eyes, your phenotype is different than you genotype.
ex: mom: Bb (brown eyes)
dad: Bb (brown eyes)
so the child has a 1/4 chance of having blue eyes, so you could have a child that is
kid: bb(blue eyes)
she inherits one recessive blue eye gene from each brown-eyed parent and comes out w/ blue eyes
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Thanks for the info!
There must be a blue eye gene in my family somewhere. But the weird thing is, I don’t know anybody before my cousin generation. There were green eyes, but not blue.
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i don’t know much about green eyes, except that some mixed people have them…
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so i’m guessing its mixture of brown-blue gene and maye blue-green genes..???
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I guess it must be the case. However, I don’t know all of my ancestors, I don’t know about their eye colour. There’s gotta be someone with blue eyes. Another uncle has blue eyes (said cousin is his nephew), so there is definitely blue eyes gene in the family, and so is green eyes gene.
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Peanut,
There are only two “real” eye colors, brown and blue. Anything else is a distortion of one of those two, but not really a new “color” (in terms of alleles) in itself.
*Thanks 7th grade Science! Someone correct me if I’m wrong. 🙂
I don’t really notice eye color. My boyfriend has “color-changing” eyes, but I think I like them because I like him, not because I’m attracted to his eyes on there own. I do think he has beautiful eyes, but I didn’t even notice them when I first saw him.
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@OD: Ancient Taoist text talk about femininity long before white people came into the picture, you know the whole ying and yang thing.
But of course, that goes to show that Asian men would have been seen as masculine, the whole yang thing, right? 🙂
but I think I made up for it by being a musician
Oh, if you’re a good musician, as far as I’m concerned, you can be 5’3″.
@Natasha W: To repeat, broad features are not masculine. Would you call this woman masculine?
How about this one?
No, they’re both quite feminine. But looking at them does bring home to me the part of my mind that buys into some of the stereotypes. I’m honestly not conscious of seeing black women as in any way less attractive or feminine than white women (and, when I took the Implicit Association Test, I didn’t have more trouble associating the good words with black faces and the bad and ugly words with white faces). And the woman in the first photo looks soft and feminine to me, with curls I’d be glad to have myself.
But I am conscious of being influenced by the “positive” Asian women are especially feminine stereotype (as in, prettier and more feminine than me), and I can feel it kicking in when I look at the second photo. It’s not that I’d intellectually justify it, like Steve Sailer; I’m aware that it’s cultural and arbitrary and a stereotype. But when I hear a certain set of white men talk about how much they like Asian women, I’m aware that there’s a part of me that reacts the same way they do. Match.com had a test up on the web, some years back, where you rated the attractiveness of photos and it told you who you liked. I went through the test for men, and it gave me sort of mixed feedback: a photo of a black man as my supposed ideal man, but with text telling me I had a particular preference for Asian men. But when I went through it for women, it gave me feedback that went Asian all the way: a photo of an Asian woman, text that told me that was what I liked, and when I told my husband, he said, yes, I know, that’s who you look at in the street.
Which is OK if it’s a random, individual thing, but I don’t like the whole beauty/femininity hierarchies that get set up by race; I’ve heard too much of a certain kind of white guy trying to use Asian women as a weapon against white women, and a certain kind of black guy trying to use white women as a weapon against black women. And I’ve heard enough about “positive” stereotypes also being a trap to be a little wary of the part of my brain that buys into them.
I mean, what is so feminine about this man?
Now that guy is hot.
@Mira: I am not laromana, but I must admit I never found Brad Pitt to be particularly masculine. That possibly goes with my preference, or should I say, prejudice, about blond men (not my type).
I’ve dated blond men and had no trouble finding them attractive and masculine in real life (including short blond men of maybe 5’5″ or 5’6″), but for some reason they don’t resonate with me on the movie screen. And Brad Pitt is pretty but not super masculine, to me.
To be honest I consider hairy men a turn off.”
I don’t, which is a good thing for my husband, since he’s quite hairy. Then again, so am I. (On the other hand, my husband’s also 6’4″, so he has one Mira positive to balance out the Mira turn off.)
Most of the people I know have brown eyes, which is considered a “boring” colour.
On the other hand, in the Mediterranean, blue eyes are associated with the evil eye, presumably precisely because they’re exotic.
Is blue really the most frequent eye colour for white Americans???
I’d have assumed brown would be the most frequent color by now, but it’s always possible my perception’s skewed toward overrepresenting how many darker white Americans there are. Definitely brown’s the most frequent color in the US population as a whole.
FWIW, I have brown eyes and tend to favor brown eyes, but some particular blue eyes can be striking.
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Do you guys suppose the feminine stereotype of Asian men is not merely to do with appearance but behaviour as well? My impression is that many Asian cultures do not favour overtly macho behaviour in men to the same extent as many white and black men do. Obviously machismo manifests in different ways. But Asians also have a stereotype of being more submissive than non-Asians – which is a quality sometimes considered unmanly.
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“I’ve got blue eyes myself and I’ve noticed that girls do notice them alot. Do guys pay much attention to eye color, though? I don’t myself.”
Yes, some do. It depends on the person. I rarely notice eye color myself and don’t particularly care what color a person’s eyes are.
Mira,
“True, true, it depends on the whites! But for some reason I thought blue eyes were not that popular in Scandinavia, because most of the people have them? I guess I was wrong. “
I don’t think they are particularly coveted, although blonde hair is pretty popular from what my SO’s grandmother tells me (she emigrated from Sweden in early 20th century); women will dye their hair blonde if they are not naturally that way, despite the high prevalence of blondes. No one in my SO’s family makes a big deal of blue eyes, its other people that make sure they never forget about it.
“Some studies show it is especially true for blue eyed men: they often go with blue eyed women. Reason? To ensure their children would be blue eyed (and to make it easier to spot the infidelity, if a woman has dark eyed child).”
My SO’s father has blue eyes (and dark hair) and he married a woman with green eyes. But all his children except one ended up some variation of blue anyway.
“It’s not that there aren’t blue eyed people here (about 1/4 of population I’d say), but blue eyes, and green eyes (even more rare- the rarest eye colour there is, I believe)”
Green eyes are rarer, but not the most rare. Violet and black are rarer, AFAIK.
“Is blue really the most frequent eye colour for white Americans???”
No, it’s not by a long shot. Brown and light brown eyes are more common. Even many Germanic people have brown eyes.
“But I am not sure if blue eyed couple can have a brown eyed kid. As far as those studies go, it’s impossible.
I think we need Natasha for more info here… :)”
Yes, two blue-eyed people can have a brown-eyed child. Like FG said, eye color inheritance is complicated. Although Peanut’s model is basically correct if you’re looking for rough estimates.
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Jasmin,
“There are only two “real” eye colors, brown and blue. Anything else is a distortion of one of those two, but not really a new “color” (in terms of alleles) in itself.”
No, green is a *true* eye color, in that there are alleles that specifically express green color.
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Eurasian Sensation,
“Do you guys suppose the feminine stereotype of Asian men is not merely to do with appearance but behaviour as well? My impression is that many Asian cultures do not favour overtly macho behaviour in men to the same extent as many white and black men do.”
I think it’s racism… plain and simple. Sure, many Asian men are quiet and unobtrusive, but this same behavior in whites or blacks is considered stoicism. Men are *supposedly* the more quiet of the sexes anyway. And I don’t find Asian men particularly deferential.
Lynn,
“But I am conscious of being influenced by the “positive” Asian women are especially feminine stereotype (as in, prettier and more feminine than me), and I can feel it kicking in when I look at the second photo.”
Do they really get that much positive press in the real world? I don’t know, my high school was jam-packed with Asians and no guys, white or black, paid particular attention to them. Rather, the mixed and white Hispanic women were the flavor du jour.
“It’s not that I’d intellectually justify it, like Steve Sailer; I’m aware that it’s cultural and arbitrary and a stereotype. But when I hear a certain set of white men talk about how much they like Asian women, I’m aware that there’s a part of me that reacts the same way they do.”
I guess that’s what living in California can do to you! 🙂
It always seems to be hmmm, the nerdy white men that like Asian women? Maybe just the ones I know.
My case is the complete opposite. I don’t know why, and I surely hope it’s not racism and Eurocentric ideals that have influenced my thinking, but I don’t tend to find Asian women particularly attractive. For sure, some are beautiful, but my automatic impulse is to think black or white Caucasian women are more beautiful as a whole. It’s pretty odd, because I find many Asian men attractive.
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“But there’s something irresistible about dark eyes, and sometimes I get angry because there seem to be many songs written about blue and green eyes but little about dark eyes. I believe they deserve more love, for being so beautiful.”
Mira,
I’m with you! Dark eyes on men are incredibly attractive. I have never really liked (especially on people of color) light eyes. Hazel to dark is ideal. Dark eyes do deserve more love because they are very beautiful and exotic.
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I just recently heard of the Asian woman/femininity sterotype and how they appeal to most men. I always thought latina women were the most desired. I do think they are beautiful due to their slim stature, youthfulness and skin.
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@Eurasian Sensation Do you guys suppose the feminine stereotype of Asian men is not merely to do with appearance but behaviour as well?
In stereotype, I’d say yes (though as Natasha W points out, the same behavior might be considered masculine stoicism in white or black men).
I think there’s also a certain “nerds can’t be sexy” stereotype in play (hence the just-right-in-the-middle positioning that gets assigned to white men, where they get to be both sufficiently smart and sufficiently sexy).
@Natasha W Do they really get that much positive press in the real world?
I think it’s probably regional. In California, lots of guys have a thing for Asian women, but it might be less true in other parts of the country.
It always seems to be hmmm, the nerdy white men that like Asian women? Maybe just the ones I know.
That’s possible, too. I work in the computer field, so I spend a lot of time around nerds.
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This is interesting:
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/is-eye-color-the-key-to-the-white-house/
I presume Obama broke the trend, but I haven’t checked out his eye color.
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@Mira
about the whole asian men seen as feminine goes against the all know martial arts thing. The way I see it is that although they know all that martial arts they are seen as asexual in american films.
So it’s like martial arts monks that don’t get to bed the female lead in the film unlike Jean Claude Van Damme. Think about it in films starring Jackie Chan or Jet Li or whomever that is American produced they never get the girl or hinted that they may be something.
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Natasha,
Now you know why I stick with humanities. 🙂
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Natasha
I agree with you. The whole idea of Asian men being feminine is pure racism, nothing more. I have had several Asian men friends, especially when I was in college and there was nothing feminine about them. Now some of them maybe seen as humble in their behavior but why would humility be seen as feminine. If anything, I think that Asian men are very attractive. They have a nice skin color, high cheekbones and I love their eyes. No, it is racism and only racism. I mean you rarely see Asian men as romantic characters in movies. It is ridiculous.
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As some may know, my ex boyfriend was Asian and there was nothing feminine about him. As Jeri points out, a lot are very humble (my ex included) and kind. Why should that be considered feminine? That is a desirable masculine trait.
Asian men are very attractive and most (the one’s I know) have a lot of patience and endurance.
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Thaddeus
I think I may have come on too hard on you. Maybe your work does influence how you see people, I don’t know. I just think you need to be careful how you say things. Black women constantly feel attacked especially when it comes to their looks so when you say that a perfectly attractive black woman could be a man ( I know, I know, you never said she LOOKS like a man), it could offend some people. So I hope I didn’t offend you.
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Ó Dochartaigh says,
I noticed you didn’t say anything about the Asian men, do you think that a 5’6 almost hairless Asian man with petite body features is as masculine as say Brad Pitt or Labron James? I think most American women would say no. Does that make them wrong for stereotyping masculinity? I don’t think so, they like the stereotypical masculine man. Not very many women will date a man that is smaller than her.
So I’m sure you, (correct me if I am wrong) like many other women want a man bigger stronger and more masculine than you, but I am not offended by this because I am only 5’8 and 150 pounds. I don’t blame women when they look at me and think he is too short, or that they are stereotyping masculinity.
So you can’t convince a man that black women are not masculine, if he truly thinks most of them are. Just like you can’t convince a women to date someone smaller than her if she truly thinks they are too feminine.
laromana,
Ó Dochartaigh,
You asked why I didn’t mention anything about ANTI-AM stereotypes and my response is that this post is MAINLY about whether men of ANY RACE would date the BW agagond pictured. I (and many other women) don’t agree with ANTI-AM stereotypes and I think this issue is off topic.
Also, you’re wrong about your generalization about women and male height and relating it to ANTI-BW RACISM. These two issues are not even REMOTELY related because there are MANY women who may prefer taller men but would be willing to get to know/have a relationship with a shorter man if he had other attractive qualities that interested her.
From my long term, FIRST HAND, life experience I can tell you that there are MANY men (especially American men) of ALL RACES who would NEVER consider a SERIOUS relationship with a BW (REGARDLESS of her positive qualities) SOLELY because she is BLACK.
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I presume Obama broke the trend, but I haven’t checked out his eye color.
You’re obviously not attuned to Obama-as-sex-symbol :-). He has gorgeous brown eyes.
More seriously, the blue-eyed President thing doesn’t surprise me, because historically US Presidents have come from a pretty ethnically narrow subset of US white people.
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jeri,
“If anything, I think that Asian men are very attractive. They have a nice skin color, high cheekbones and I love their eyes.”
Yes. How can one resist? I love the wispy hair some have.
It’s good for me that there is an Asian men femininity stereotype, though. It means if I’m ever single again, I’ll have little competition for them. 😉
laromana,
I’m with you. But I just think those types of men can go to hell in a handbasket.
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yeah wispy,dark-colored hair is nice. I think asian men have nice thick hair
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@Natasha W:
I have a feeling you really, really, REALLY like Takeshi Kaneshiro. 😉
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leigh, I do. Should I post some more pictures? Lol. He’s totally perfec.t.
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@Natasha W:
That’s why we should have the most gorgeous/handsome/goodlooking asian men post! Let’s make a suggestion for abagond, shall we? 🙂
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Abagond hears us, and sees us, nearly derailing every post with talk of hot men. So he should be getting the picture by now. In the meantime, I will bump the “Most Gorgeous Man” poll (with pics of Takeshi, of course), so this post doesn’t get too off-topic.
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@laromana
Also, you’re wrong about your generalization about women and male height and relating it to ANTI-BW RACISM. These two issues are not even REMOTELY related because there are MANY women who may prefer taller men but would be willing to get to know/have a relationship with a shorter man if he had other attractive qualities that interested her.
You’re right about this. Women may prefer taller men, but many find attractive, date and marry shorter men without any problems. You can see this trend even here: several women agreed that, if a guy is a good musician, being short doesn’t bother them (Shallow thinking, I know, but it proves my point).
On the other hand…
From my long term, FIRST HAND, life experience I can tell you that there are MANY men (especially American men) of ALL RACES who would NEVER consider a SERIOUS relationship with a BW (REGARDLESS of her positive qualities) SOLELY because she is BLACK.
Now, I don’t have any first hand experience with this, but it does seem to be the case. Like I already wrote elsewhere, stating “I don’t have preference for black women” is a lousy way of trying to hide your racism. Whatever “preference” a man has, there will always be black women who fit those preferences. Plus, it’s not like preferences are absolutes: there are men who prefer blondes but don’t have any problems dating and marrying brunettes. So why isn’t the same with finding attractive, dating and marrying black women??? Because it’s not about “preferences”, it’s about racism and not wanting to date/marry black women.
PS-I feel a bit weird for saying this (because I don’t find politicians attractive), but Obama is a really good looking man. He has such beautiful eyes. The type of eyes I really like.
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yes, in a second. but, would she date me…? a lot of things im finding on this website point to no, based on the separatist opinions thats make up your articles.
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This is interesting: “male” stereotypes about black women are seen as insulting and demeaning. People are so sensitive about them that they see them even where they are not being articulated.
Meanwhile, “female” stereotypes about Asian men are seen as charming.
Discuss, please.
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What are some female stereotypes about Asian men? Specifically, which ones were mentioned in the comments of this post (if that is what you are referring to)?
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Btw, given the discussion above and my posting of links re: Elza Soares (a Brazilian singer), this headline is interesting:
http://yahoo.tecontei.com.br/noticias/se-nao-fosse-cantora-eu-seria-prostituta-diz-elza-soares-77058.html
“In polemical interview, Elza declares ‘If I wasn’t a singer, I’d be a prostitute’.”
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@Natasha
That they are short, hairless, petite…
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^Initially, it was a male (Ó Dochartaigh) who brought up the Asian male femininity stereotype. The women on this post were expressing their bewilderment at the existence of such stereotypes.
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Yes, Natasha. Did I say or imply that it was only women who were doing this? I merely commented on the existence of said stereotypes and the fact that certain commentators find the characteristics which make them up to be charming.
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Women, here at least, are not “doing” anything — that’s my point.
And who exactly was saying the stereotypes were “charming?” Quotes please?
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Did I imply that they were?
It’s good for me that there is an Asian men femininity stereotype, though. It means if I’m ever single again, I’ll have little competition for them.
Not quite bewilderment, Natasha. More like happiness that such a thing exists.
Now switch characters and genders and imagine a white guy saying the same thing about the BW masculine stereotype.
What do you think your reaction would be?
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Thad,
“Did I imply that they were?”
*roll eyes*
Just quit.
“Not quite bewilderment, Natasha. More like happiness that such a thing exists.”
Of course. I knew you would pick up that statement and try to present it as “proof.” Ignoring the rest of the comments and the context.
You’re simply trying to make something out of nothing, as per usual. It’s extremely obvious that I was being thoroughly tongue-in-cheek with that statement. Hence the smiley and given the several comments I made before that, arguing against the stereotype and showing how it is built on false tenets. The only person that would have read that statement as “validation” is you, because nearly all of your arguments are sprung from twisting people’s statements and intentions.
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Natasha, maybe you should relax just a tad. That rock on your shoulder must get awfully heavy from time to time.
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Thad, please. Is that your response — “relax?” You should’ve relaxed and actually read the statements for what they were and not what you wanted them to be.
I’m not at all interested in your “but they do it too!” agenda. Save it.
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Natasha and Peanut
Yes, Asian men do have very thick, beautiful hair. And you are right. How can anyone resist them?!
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Very attractive woman.
Is she trustful and mentally stimulating?
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This post is causing some discussion on another blog I read.
To answer the question… would I date the woman in the photo…. I need to see her body.
Based on just face, I can tell you if I woudn’t date someone. But based just on face, I can NOT tell you if I would date someone. (I.e., for me, face is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one.)
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What blog is that?
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@abagond: The Obsidian Files
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Again, catching up on posts…
I voted “She’s beautiful” in the poll. I would like to refrain from judging a woman who doesn’t even know her image was being used in such an informal and public way but I have to say that she is a very attractive woman. I think most people would agree.
The fact that people have questioned her gender and race, both of which are extremely evident at first sight, shows a true prejudice against black women. A subconscious one, perhaps, but a prejudice nonetheless.
I agree w/ some of the other posters, why not a post with an everyday nice-looking black male asking the women if they’d date him? It would be interesting. Since some say that black men are seen as more attractive than black women in the U.S., I would be interested in seeing the constrast in reaction to this post.
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@ mynameismyname:
I think you need to look back on the reasons why people (myself included) questioned her gender and/or race.
You may think the reasons are silly, but if you look at the context, I don’t think it reflects a prejudice against black women.
I think part of it is the context in which she was placed. When Abagond posted the picture and asked the question, I straight away wondered if there was something he wasn’t telling us about her. Because she is obviously very beautiful (IMO) and I figure almost anyone would want to date her. To me it was such a non-issue that I couldn’t fathom why Abagond would even bother asking – unless there was something intriguing about her he was later planning to reveal about her. (There was no such thing, as it turned out.)
Thad was questioning whether or not she was a transexual because she wears a lot of makeup, and in his cultural context, that is a frequently a clue that a person might be transgender. Personally I think Thad’s viewpoint is quite silly, yet I can understand that he is coming from a different cultural context to the rest of us.
Neither Thad or myself ever implied she was at all “mannish”; we both said she was extremely attractive. “Mannish” was an erroneous interpretation made by others.
I questioned whether she might be something other than African-American, because I live somewhere (Australia) where there are hardly any African-Americans. So if I see someone who looks like this where I live, they are more likely to be Mauritian, Latin American, Coloured South African, Pacific Islander or even SE Asian. Within each of those groups there is plenty of diversity, and you will find some people who look a bit like this woman.
So I think it’s important not to jump to conclusions about why those questions were asked.
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Been away for a while now I’m back 😀 and I see some familiar names. I was surprised at the comment count on something that seemed to be simple, guess it was not.
I think the woman in question is very lovely and I think most people would agree. Being black myself, I see her as nothing other than black but the reality is that she can blend into parts of the world that aren’t associated with “blackness” (going by the image with the heavy treatment). Her gender never came into question for me lol no alarms went off at all.
However I do believe the “white is right” ideology that grips the world right now discourages most men from an early age from seeing beauty in any woman that can be labeled “black”. There is no prestige in having her on your arm as a matter of fact you risk losing it. A special brand of hatred gets channeled to us, I see this all the time, you have comments praising a narrow range of Asian beauty and the rest of the images are just white women (and even a very narrow selection in this group as well) but a pic of a woman resembling the one here gets flamed (Aba keeps his boards clean) but we’ve all seen some of the other sites. Must black be be stomped to the bottom for everyone else to seem better than what they are?
And ladies keep your hands off my Takeshi!!><
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I think the doll test and a similiar test more recently on CNN translates into every aspect of life, including perceived beauty. I think that white women have been upheld for so long that it is just ingrained into people, even people of color as proved in that test. It’s very subconcious, but it is there.
I hope (and think) that this is changing, somewhat. I have a male friend from Palenstine and we were discussing women and he loves Beyonce. I know how some may feel about her, but one thing that she has done is to open people’s thinking in regards to beauty.
Gen,
I’m sorry, but Takeshi is mine!lol
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Ladies, I think you’d have to get through Natasha W. first. 😛
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^That’s right!
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whew, Leigh, glad to see you posting, I was worried your boyfreind found out about you fawning over all the Asian men over here and banned you from Abagonds forum…….
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@B.R.:
Nahhh. He knows I have a deep appreciation for my Asian men. Actually, all men of color. In fact, he even suggested one guy to me. He’s quite secure and knows he has nothing to worry about. He has my heart so as they say, it’s all good. 😉
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Gen says,
However I do believe the “white is right” ideology that grips the world right now discourages most men from an early age from seeing beauty in any woman that can be labeled “black”. There is no prestige in having her on your arm as a matter of fact you risk losing it. A special brand of hatred gets channeled to us, I see this all the time, you have comments praising a narrow range of Asian beauty and the rest of the images are just white women (and even a very narrow selection in this group as well) but a pic of a woman resembling the one here gets flamed (Aba keeps his boards clean) but we’ve all seen some of the other sites. Must black be be stomped to the bottom for everyone else to seem better than what they are?
laromana says,
Gen, your comment above highlights why ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE are so effective in keeping men of ALL RACES from appreciate the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, FEMININITY, and BEAUTY of BW.
Hopefully, some day more men will REJECT ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and learn to treat BW like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN.
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@ Eurasian Sensation
I think you need to look back on the reasons why
people (myself included) questioned her gender and/or race.
I understand what you’re saying, but I never thought Abagond wanted to test us in such a way, so to speak.
Now, it was a random blog, then maybe, but I guess what I know about Abagond made me think he simply wanted to see how men of different races reacted on a woman (who is, as far as I understand, seen as black my many, him included).
Was that so difficult to understand?
Look, we don’t know if this woman was straight; yet, nobody complained about her being a potential lesbian. That is also a vital information when deciding what kind of a relationship you want to have with her. (I think?) Yet, nobody even asked about it.
@Gen
However I do believe the “white is right” ideology that grips the world right now discourages most men from an early age from seeing beauty in any woman that can be labeled “black”. There is no prestige in having her on your arm as a matter of fact you risk losing it.
This.
Still, most of the people believe they can think with their own head and that they don’t let others dictate the way they live.
@islandgirl
I think that white women have been upheld for so long that it is just ingrained into people, even people of color as proved in that test. It’s very subconcious, but it is there.
I think this is true. White is still seen as a norm so many people don’t even challenge the stereotype.
@laromana
Hopefully, some day more men will REJECT ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and learn to treat BW like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN.
I hope so. Humans deserve to be treated as such.
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@ Mira:
“I understand what you’re saying, but I never thought Abagond wanted to test us in such a way, so to speak.
Now, it was a random blog, then maybe, but I guess what I know about Abagond made me think he simply wanted to see how men of different races reacted on a woman (who is, as far as I understand, seen as black my many, him included).
Was that so difficult to understand?”
As I said earlier, the reasons why race/gender were questioned might seem silly to some, but I’m just saying it wasn’t to do with any anti-black prejudice.
If someone asks me “Would you like $100?” straight away I wonder if there is some catch involved. Likewise, if someone shows me a picture of a woman who is extremely good-looking (and who I would date in a heartbeat) and asks “Would you date this woman?” my mind instinctively wonders what is the catch.
In the context of this blog, in hindsight it might seem silly, but I think it’s understandable nonetheless.
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If someone asks me “Would you like $100?” straight away I wonder if there is some catch involved.
Well, I guess who “somebody” is. If it’s somebody who’s often blogging about people’s greediness, money, poverty, or anything similar, I guess I’d assume he’s “testing” our reaction to money. If it was a random blog, then I guess I’d be more suspicious.
I am aware of the fact none of us know Abagond in the true sense of the word; however, I think we all formed our opinion on his character. Also, this blog shows themes he likes to talk about. I’m not saying it was impossible that there was a catch, but I guess, knowing Abagond and his interest in race relations, I just assume that’s what he wanted to test.
Also, your “where’s the catch” question (about race) was different than Thad’s “is she a girl”, because I found your question more in sync with this blog’s theme (and therefore more plausible). After all, as far as I know, we don’t know who this woman is and we don’t know about her racial background.
Likewise, if someone shows me a picture of a woman who is extremely good-looking (and who I would date in a heartbeat) and asks “Would you date this woman?” my mind instinctively wonders what is the catch.
I guess you have the problem seeing this woman as anything but desirable. I understand your feelings; I am not a guy so I don’t know what to say, but the women is, simply put, gorgeous.
Still, you and I have to understand there are some men who would not want to date or marry this woman because of her race alone. There are also many who would have sec with her, but that’s all- have fun with her but don’t treat her seriously (to Thad: no, I am not saying it’s impossible to treat seriously your casual sexual partner)- but there are definitely men who would not introduce her to their mothers because she is of “wrong” race.
I think Abagond’s motives for this “study” were honest, but his methodology is lacking.
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Abagond, I wish you had done this poll differently! The percentages aren’t very meaningful, since each voter was allowed to tick more than one box.
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The results are pretty uniform, I’d say.
1061 participant. Of those, only 11 (1,04%) think she’s ugly. 108 (10,18) think she’s pretty (and around the same number that she’s good looking and other positive things 🙂 ) 128 would have sex with her (12,06%) 154 (14,51) would marry her.
However….
If we take a look at the race, we’ll see that black and white men are almost uniform in their views of the woman- Latinos and Asians are a bit different.
Some categories to illustrate this
0.3% of black men think she’s ugly; 0.5% of whites think the same. 1,5% of Latinos think she is ugly. 5% of Asians think the same. Asians are ones who find her ugliest.
When it comes to main positive attributes (pretty, hot and beautiful), around 24% of black men find her that way, while 27% whites think the same (whites found her prettier and more beautiful, and blacks found her hotter).
More than 35% of Lations find her that way, which is more than blacks or whites. Also, Latinos find her more desirable in all three categories.
For Asian men, the percentage is 28, which is close (but still higher) than either blacks or whites.
Latinos are the ones who find her most attractive; but Asians, despite relatively high percentage of “she’s ugly” answers, find her attractive as much as black and white men do.
Let’s talk about sex
Black men: 12,6%
White men: 12,8%
(again, this 0.2 difference, but this time in whites “favour”… is that only one guy making it?)
Around 10% for both Latinos and Asians. This is a bit lower than the average.
And let’s get serious….
15,3 black men would marry her.
15,1 white men would marry her.
(again, 0.2 difference)
Marriage: 11,3% of Latinos would marry her, which makes them the group who is the least interested in marrying this woman.
Asians, on the other hand: 16% would marry her, which means they are the most interested in marrying her.
Interpretation
Black and white men seem almost uniform in their views of this woman. Latino and Asian men are those whose results are a bit different.
Still, this result is, I believe, affected with the smaller sample of Asian and Latino men than to black and white men.
I predict more Latino and Asian participants would make results similar to blacks and whites and make the whole poll uniform .
What does that mean?
It means men of all races have about the same public opinions on this woman. What they really think (what would they really do in reality) is another matter. In other words, we have no idea if they were honest or not.
PS-I was bored. 😀
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Wow Eurasian Sensation you though this woman was a colored South African…? I think they’d beg to differ in SA.
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@Eurasian Sensation:
I find it interesting that practically most of the female commenters didn’t question this woman’s gender in the first place. While I do understand what you’re saying that some others may have thought abagond was asking a trick question, the woman was perhaps perceived to be a transvetite due to her excessive make-up. I’ve seen women wear more make-up than this woman in the pic. Yet, their gender was never in question.
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I’ve seen women wear more make-up than this woman in the pic. Yet, their gender was never in question.
Like I said, that much of makeup is pretty much a norm for any woman in my culture who wants to look attractive/wear make up. Also, her dress/top seems pretty modest.
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@Mira:
Look, we don’t know if this woman was straight; yet, nobody complained about her being a potential lesbian.
Nobody COMPLAINED about her being potentially a guy, either, Mira.
Here’s what pisses me off about this…
I live in a city and a social circle where there are PLENTY of feminine-looking transvestites, many of whom look very much like that woman in that photo.
Fact.
Now, bring this up and all of a sudden I’m “insulting” her, or claiming that she looks “masculine”, or what have you, NONE of which I’ve claimed and NONE of which, by the way, ANYONE who’s had any experience in dealing with the transgendered would ever claim.
It is only an “insult” to make a comment like that if one presumes beforehand that it’s an awful thing to be transgendered or that transvestites cannot ever, ever be mistaken for women.
The people who are saying I “insulted” this woman are thus revealing a good load of their own prejudices, not mine. Yes, “Most women would find it insulting to be mistaken for a transvestite.” So what? Most people IN GENERAL are homophobic. It’s no wonder then that they’d be insulted. There is no moral reason to be insulted ASIDE from homophobia.
Why was my first reaction to this woman “Wow, she looks like a transvestite”? Not because she’s black and thus supposedly “masculine”, but because she’s using make-up that’s way overboard AND because, given the filter in the photo, the shot doesn’t look like something you’d see in a magazine. (A model, a class of women who generally shoot for the same iconic representation of femininity that transvestites aim for, would have a reason to look like that in a photo shoot, but a photo shoot wouldn’t likely apply that sort of filter to the shot).
I’m happy to believe that this quantity of make-up is normal in Serbian culture. It is NOT in Brazil except among 1) models 2) prostitutes and 3) transvestites. Everyday women do not wear that much make-up into the street. If they did, in our climate, they’d soon have massive skin problems.
Regarding those stats, Mira… With only 11 people claiming she’s “ugly”, we don’t have a large enough sample to say anything. Furthermore, who’s a “latino”? I put my answer in the “latino” category just because I was pissed with the underlying assumption that “latino” is a race. (Yes, we could choose more than one, but scientifically, what’s being proven if you want to see how “races” react to a woman and then you toss in a generic, trans-national, not even ethnic category as well?)
And that’s not even taking into consideration the trolls, who surely voted on this just to try skew the stats.
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And can I just add that my tongue- in-cheek ‘racoon eyes’ comment was on the back of Thad’s excessive make-up one, and it was sarcastic. No way did it mean I agree that she’s a man!
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@Thad
Nobody COMPLAINED about her being potentially a guy, either, Mira
Thad, you complained. Not in a way “ooooh, she might be a guy, eeeeeewww!!!”, but in a way “I can’t vote until I’m sure she’s female blah blah”. Why didn’t you just assume she’s female, for the sake of the poll, just like people assumed she’s heterosexual?
You are the first to admit she looks feminine; even if she were a transvestite, what difference does it make?
I’m saying you tried to derail this subject instead of just voting. Ok, Abagond is “guilty” of not putting the “assume she’s female and heterosexual” along with “you two are single and close in age”, but I guess that goes with his own personality and way of thinking.
Also, please note my last post: it wasn’t about whether calling someone a transvestite is an insult, it’s about missing the point (when a point is not hard to guess) and derailing the subject (when a subject is clear).
Now, for race I agree- the poll assumes there ARE objective races to choose from and that Latino is one of them. But Abagond was not the one choosing a race for you; people were free to chose an appropriate poll based on the race they identify with. You went with Latino; good for me. In the case of this poll, what others think and how others see you doesn’t matter, for a change. If you identify as Asian you could go with it; it would still be a valid poll result.
I’m happy to believe that this quantity of make-up is normal in Serbian culture.
I am not. Heavy make up is not a good thing. Too much of it since the age of 16 makes your skin look pretty old in the 30s. Same goes for excessive tanning, which Serbian women also love.
Regarding those stats, Mira… With only 11 people claiming she’s “ugly”, we don’t have a large enough sample to say anything.
We generally don’t have a good sample here. More than 1000 voters sound like a good idea, but the sample itself is not completely valid, I’d say. That’s why I said Abagond had a great idea for this, but his methodology was lacking. Then again, this isn’t a scientific research paper but a blog poll, so, who cares?
PS-I suspect Abagond might be disappointed by the direction of this discussion, but I’d still love to see a male version of it.
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@ MerriMay
“Wow Eurasian Sensation you though this woman was a colored South African…?”
Correction. No, I didn’t say that. What I said was that if I saw her in my neighborhood I would possibly pick her as being a Coloured Saffy (or Cook Islander, Mauritian, etc) because there are plenty of those people around where I live, and virtually no African-Americans. And she falls within the broad range of looks that those people might have.
“I think they’d beg to differ in SA.”
Don’t think so. I don’t know how much you know about SA (so I apologise if you know this already), but “Coloured” in the South African context has an entirely different meaning to in other countries. It refers to a section of the population with mixed ancestry (predominantly white and black, but also Indian and Malay).
check the photos here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Coloureds
What I’m saying about her race (and which everybody seems to be misunderstanding) is that while she most likely looks black, she could possibly be a number of other things.
In the same way that the category “African-American” contains a wide variety of looks (compare Wesley Snipes to Prince, for example), other ethnicities/nationalities can have similar variety. Which means that I know Cambodians and Fijians who look quite like the woman we are discussing, even though she does not look like the “typical” Fijian or Cambodian.
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OK people- She’s hot and that, that! My word is final 🙂
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wayyyyy too much make-up and her earrings are too big, but she’s beautiful for sure.
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When I first saw this picture I thought she was beautiful but Thad, with his talk of her being a transvestite and having raccoon eyes, has completely destroyed her beauty for me. I cannot look at her the same way I did before.
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